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Hamilton Development
#1
https://www.thespec.com/news-story/96661...mall-site/

Although this developer hasn't produced the best work in the past. I wish something like this would happen for the failure that is the Market Square in downtown. Unfortunately I don't see that happening anytime soon since Conestoga college is moving in and the record is probably a stable tenant. Probably one of the things I want most for the downtown is for the whole market square block to be demolished.
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#2
(11-08-2019, 04:19 PM)westwardloo Wrote: https://www.thespec.com/news-story/96661...mall-site/

Although this developer hasn't produced the best work in the past. I wish something like this would happen for the failure that is the Market Square in downtown. Unfortunately I don't see that happening anytime soon since Conestoga college is moving in and the record is probably a stable tenant. Probably one of the things I want most for the downtown is for the whole market square block to be demolished.

I'm not sure that, in Kitchener's case, that the repurposed mall is going in the wrong direction. What DTK needs is more people living, shopping, working and, yes, educating themselves, there. It's difficult to say how large these campus will become, but I can imagine that in a few years it will be quite large, and will be a good economic boom for the downtown core.

Whatever the case, I know a lot of people want something different there; many wanted the new "Aud" to have been built there. But clearly this isn't happening either.
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#3
We have lots of residential projects on the go already, and there is still a lot of land available for intensification (I don't know whether the situation is the same in Hamilton) so we don't really need to tear down Market Square for that.

Like jeffster, I'm happy to see more people in the core, whether living or working, studying or shopping, and the Conestoga College initiative goes in the right direction for that.
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#4
(11-08-2019, 04:41 PM)jeffster Wrote:
(11-08-2019, 04:19 PM)westwardloo Wrote: https://www.thespec.com/news-story/96661...mall-site/

Although this developer hasn't produced the best work in the past. I wish something like this would happen for the failure that is the Market Square in downtown. Unfortunately I don't see that happening anytime soon since Conestoga college is moving in and the record is probably a stable tenant. Probably one of the things I want most for the downtown is for the whole market square block to be demolished.

I'm not sure that, in Kitchener's case, that the repurposed mall is going in the wrong direction. What DTK needs is more people living, shopping, working and, yes, educating themselves, there. It's difficult to say how large these campus will become, but I can imagine that in a few years it will be quite large, and will be a good economic boom for the downtown core.

Whatever the case, I know a lot of people want something different there; many wanted the new "Aud" to have been built there. But clearly this isn't happening either.
I am totally in agreement in regards to people living, working and going to school in the downtown. My argument is that if Conestoga college had chosen a different building to set up shop temporarily and maybe eventual build a purpose built space like the mcmaster pharmacy school that would have been more favorable than propping up a blight on the downtown like Market Square. as long as there are tenants to rent the space I don't think we will ever be rid of this block unfortunately.
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#5
(11-08-2019, 05:34 PM)westwardloo Wrote:
(11-08-2019, 04:41 PM)jeffster Wrote: I'm not sure that, in Kitchener's case, that the repurposed mall is going in the wrong direction. What DTK needs is more people living, shopping, working and, yes, educating themselves, there. It's difficult to say how large these campus will become, but I can imagine that in a few years it will be quite large, and will be a good economic boom for the downtown core.

Whatever the case, I know a lot of people want something different there; many wanted the new "Aud" to have been built there. But clearly this isn't happening either.
I am totally in agreement in regards to people living, working and going to school in the downtown. My argument is that if Conestoga college had chosen a different building to set up shop temporarily and maybe eventual build a purpose built space like the mcmaster pharmacy school that would have been more favorable than propping up a blight on the downtown like Market Square. as long as there are tenants to rent the space I don't think we will ever be rid of this block unfortunately.

I am thinking that eventually they could make this building more pleasing to the eye. How exactly, I am not sure. I could see eventually Conestoga taking over other buildings in the area, including the tower, if all works well.

I am just thinking though that razing the property and creating something worthwhile is going to be a massive development, especially since the site seems to be well use.
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#6
(11-08-2019, 08:20 PM)jeffster Wrote:
(11-08-2019, 05:34 PM)westwardloo Wrote: I am totally in agreement in regards to people living, working and going to school in the downtown. My argument is that if Conestoga college had chosen a different building to set up shop temporarily and maybe eventual build a purpose built space like the mcmaster pharmacy school that would have been more favorable than propping up a blight on the downtown like Market Square. as long as there are tenants to rent the space I don't think we will ever be rid of this block unfortunately.

I am thinking that eventually they could make this building more pleasing to the eye. How exactly, I am not sure. I could see eventually Conestoga taking over other buildings in the area, including the tower, if all works well.

I am just thinking though that razing the property and creating something worthwhile is going to be a massive development, especially since the site seems to be well use.
That is basically my point. There is no incentive for the owner of the property to sell/ development when they have tenants giving them money. It would have been better in my opinion to suffer 5 more years of an empty retal space and then demolish and start from scratch. In order to make it pleasing to the eye and have a good street presence they will have to spend a lot. Conestoga would be better off buying a lot dt and starting from scratch.
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#7
(11-09-2019, 12:18 AM)westwardloo Wrote: That is basically my point. There is no incentive for the owner of the property to sell/ development when they have tenants giving them money. It would have been better in my opinion to suffer 5 more years of an empty retal space and then demolish and start from scratch. In order to make it pleasing to the eye and have a good street presence they will have to spend a lot. Conestoga would be better off buying a lot dt and starting from scratch.

Two questions: If you were the owners and your place was near empty, would you suffer for 5 years and hope someone with a lot of money to come around and redevelop the property? Other question: If you're Conestoga College and you're looking to expand further, do you buy and empty lot and start from scratch, and wait years for the project to be finished to start your new course?

I think the answer is No in both circumstances. I do see Conestoga as improving that building, much like they did University Heights, and perhaps The Record will move somewhere else DTK.

I think it's easy to want something or something else when it's not our money or our decision to make. As it stands, businesses do things to stay afloat, and schools that are on the public dime, need to use their money wisely. In this case, it's working for both of them.
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#8
(11-09-2019, 01:01 PM)jeffster Wrote:
(11-09-2019, 12:18 AM)westwardloo Wrote: That is basically my point. There is no incentive for the owner of the property to sell/ development when they have tenants giving them money. It would have been better in my opinion to suffer 5 more years of an empty retal space and then demolish and start from scratch. In order to make it pleasing to the eye and have a good street presence they will have to spend a lot. Conestoga would be better off buying a lot dt and starting from scratch.

Two questions: If you were the owners and your place was near empty, would you suffer for 5 years and hope someone with a lot of money to come around and redevelop the property? Other question: If you're Conestoga College and you're looking to expand further, do you buy and empty lot and start from scratch, and wait years for the project to be finished to start your new course?

I think the answer is No in both circumstances. I do see Conestoga as improving that building, much like they did University Heights, and perhaps The Record will move somewhere else DTK.

I think it's easy to want something or something else when it's not our money or our decision to make. As it stands, businesses do things to stay afloat, and schools that are on the public dime, need to use their money wisely. In this case, it's working for both of them.
Well said   I am always thinking how everyone is great at saying what should happen when it is their money   caviot though everyone should keep dreaming big
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#9
Alternately, the college could rent there for a few years until they're established downtown, then move to a purpose-built space and leave the mall for full redevelopment.
My Twitter: @KevinLMaps
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#10
(11-09-2019, 01:01 PM)jeffster Wrote:
(11-09-2019, 12:18 AM)westwardloo Wrote: That is basically my point. There is no incentive for the owner of the property to sell/ development when they have tenants giving them money. It would have been better in my opinion to suffer 5 more years of an empty retal space and then demolish and start from scratch. In order to make it pleasing to the eye and have a good street presence they will have to spend a lot. Conestoga would be better off buying a lot dt and starting from scratch.

Two questions: If you were the owners and your place was near empty, would you suffer for 5 years and hope someone with a lot of money to come around and redevelop the property? Other question: If you're Conestoga College and you're looking to expand further, do you buy and empty lot and start from scratch, and wait years for the project to be finished to start your new course?

I think the answer is No in both circumstances. I do see Conestoga as improving that building, much like they did University Heights, and perhaps The Record will move somewhere else DTK.

I think it's easy to want something or something else when it's not our money or our decision to make. As it stands, businesses do things to stay afloat, and schools that are on the public dime, need to use their money wisely. In this case, it's working for both of them.
Ok first off this discussion was meant to be purely fantasy urban planning talk because I want to live in a beautiful world class city. 
Second to be honest I am a giant urban dreamer. Constantly thinking of ways to improve the cities landscape. So in fact if I did have the money and I did own the block. I would demolish it in a heart beat. Build something to reinvigorate the king street front, maybe build a nice square to play homage the the city hall roots. Obviously if I was an extremely wealthy developer I would probably be looking to make a profit, but at the end of the day I would more concerned about try to create a beautiful function space for the city I live in.
Of course conestoga isn't going to build something until they know the market for their expanded business program.
That renovation on university ave was 58 million dollars. Personally I would prefer they use that to buy and construct a new campus even if the did it over by the climbing gym. Might even help jumpstart the development around borden station. Rather than extend the life of a failed mall and a blight on kitchener heritage and urban planning record.
I can't believe I am in an argument with someone over market square, I thought it would be universally hated on a forum like this. Goes to show how much a bubble I can live in sometimes. 
I understand what you are saying. all I am saying is if Hamilton can redevelop a failed mall we can too. But due to the conestoga college situation I don't see it happen this decade, which I think is unfortunate.
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#11
(11-09-2019, 06:03 PM)westwardloo Wrote: Ok first off this discussion was meant to be purely fantasy urban planning talk because I want to live in a beautiful world class city. 
Second to be honest I am a giant urban dreamer. Constantly thinking of ways to improve the cities landscape. So in fact if I did have the money and I did own the block. I would demolish it in a heart beat. Build something to reinvigorate the king street front, maybe build a nice square to play homage the the city hall roots. Obviously if I was an extremely wealthy developer I would probably be looking to make a profit, but at the end of the day I would more concerned about try to create a beautiful function space for the city I live in.
Of course conestoga isn't going to build something until they know the market for their expanded business program.
That renovation on university ave was 58 million dollars. Personally I would prefer they use that to buy and construct a new campus even if the did it over by the climbing gym. Might even help jumpstart the development around borden station. Rather than extend the life of a failed mall and a blight on kitchener heritage and urban planning record.
I can't believe I am in an argument with someone over market square, I thought it would be universally hated on a forum like this. Goes to show how much a bubble I can live in sometimes. 
I understand what you are saying. all I am saying is if Hamilton can redevelop a failed mall we can too. But due to the conestoga college situation I don't see it happen this decade, which I think is unfortunate.

To be honest, I don't think anyone loves Market Square. And I don't think we're arguing. The issue is that there are not enough people with deep pockets to actually do something with that building, especially since it would displace a major tenant, The Record, who are likely under some sort of lease agreement.

However, I did look at the Conestoga thing as a major positive for Market Square and DTK and I can see it going under a major transformation over the next decade, along with other unimportant and non-heritage buildings in that area.

As for Hamilton, it looks like the future was so dark for that mall (basically littered with dollar stores and other low profit businesses) that it probably ran out of options. That whole area (Jackson Square, Hamilton City Centre, Stelco towers, First Ontario Place) is not that successful. That area of Hamilton seems to have a lot going for it, but for whatever reason, it's not great. So it's nice to see them get something in there that should help out that area a lot. I've always liked that part of The Hammer, it has a big city feel without the traffic and chaos.
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#12
I love Market Square.

I don't think it is unflawed, and I love it for purely selfish reasons so I certainly don't advocate that it should be persevered. But I do love it. I think it's a wonderful place. I love the clock tower, I love the bridges, I love the green glass.

I'm glad Conestoga is there to give it another chance, though between them and Europro it seems likely the exterior is only going to get worse. Big Grin
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#13
(11-09-2019, 08:56 PM)robdrimmie Wrote: I love Market Square.

I don't think it is unflawed, and I love it for purely selfish reasons so I certainly don't advocate that it should be persevered. But I do love it. I think it's a wonderful place. I love the clock tower, I love the bridges, I love the green glass.

I'm glad Conestoga is there to give it another chance, though between them and Europro it seems likely the exterior is only going to get worse. Big Grin

Well, then, I stand corrected!

The bridges are a unique feature, and somehow I think that in the future their going to be an important component for Conestoga College. Though unsure if that component would ever include the hotel that is next to Market Square.

I'm OK with the clock tower -- are they maintaining it again? For the longest time, the time was incorrect with lots of burnt out lights.

For some reason, I remember as a child that there was some sort of play area on the exterior of that mall, second level (so off of the street).
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#14
(11-09-2019, 09:04 PM)jeffster Wrote: I'm OK with the clock tower -- are they maintaining it again? For the longest time, the time was incorrect with lots of burnt out lights.

I don't know with certainty, but I don't believe so. The last time I checked the time being displayed it was not correct, but that was sometime in summertime.
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#15
I dearly wish those ugly, useless pedestrian bridges could come down. They are a blight.
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