The COVID-19 pandemic

[danbrotherston]

So we had a strange experience. We have a newborn at home and we’re going to hire the same Doula as with our first  to help with him because he’s having sleep troubles. She asked if we were vaccinated and when we said yes, she said she cannot help us because she cannot be around vaccinated people for health reasons. My wife inquired more and she said her nurse friends are talking about getting headaches and having abnormal cycles when they are with people who received the experimental vaccine. First I heard of this conspiracy ugh… misinformation everywhere..

That's weird. I mean, really, really weird.

I know in some that medical and teaching fields are generally anti-vax (naturopathic and Chiro, for example, some massage people, some midwives, and a lot of teachers) but I didn't know it existed with a doula, though I had no idea they would help with afterbirth stuff either.

I know with teachers, many believe that it can affect getting pregnant, though no evidence of that. Naturopathic and chiro's is pretty obvious why they're against it.

I frankly disagree with referring to Naturopaths as "in the medical field"...as far as I understand they are snake oil salespeople. At the most extreme level of generosity you could call them "wellness", but not medical. There is admittedly significant grey area in the medical field between medical and practitioners like massage therapists and chiropractors, but Naturopaths are firmly outside the medical realm for me.

Leaving that aside, I've definitely heard the "I'm afraid of vaccinated people" garbage before. There was a story about a school down in ... you guessed it ... Florida a while back. I cynically suspect this strategy is intentional. When it comes to cult like things...even some religions...there is an explicit strategy of segregating individuals from the general public. This would be an effective way of achieving that. People who are vaccinated are an effective in convincing people to get vaccinated, which is an anti-goal of the antivaxxers...no matter how much they protest they pretend to support freedom of choice.

[neonjoe]

Yeah we definitely now are happy not to have an anti masker/anti vaxxer in our house.
This woman was great with our first child but this incident completely changed our opinion.

[jeffster]

Current 7-day Covid-19 cases per 100k

• Grey Bruce Health Unit 45.9
• Porcupine Health Unit 24.0
• Region of Waterloo Public Health and Emergency Services 16.8
• City of Hamilton Public Health Services 14.7
• North Bay Parry Sound District Health Unit 12.3
• Haliburton, Kawartha, Pine Ridge District Health Unit 11.6
• Middlesex-London Health Unit 9.3
• Huron Perth Public Health 8.6
• Chatham-Kent Public Health 8.5
• Peel Public Health 8.1

--snip--

• Timiskaming Health Unit 0.0
• Kingston, Frontenac and Lennox & Addington Public Health 0.0
• Leeds, Grenville & Lanark District Health Unit 0.0

• TOTAL ONTARIO 7.5

[jeffster]

I frankly disagree with referring to Naturopaths as "in the medical field"...as far as I understand they are snake oil salespeople. At the most extreme level of generosity you could call them "wellness", but not medical. There is admittedly significant grey area in the medical field between medical and practitioners like massage therapists and chiropractors, but Naturopaths are firmly outside the medical realm for me.
.

While I agree that for the most part it's snake oil, though many would disagree with that, but technically and legally they're still "doctors" and have similar training.

Either way, though, for those that swear by ND and chiro's and those belonging to the teachers union, we still have a gap of unvaccinated.

What is worrying is that potentially we'll need boosters or perhaps even new vaccines, as it appears covid-19 won't be going away as more breakthrough cases occur. This is an issue. It's an issue for those that aren't anti-vaxxers, but have a real fear of needles (such as my daughter) and it takes everything for them to get a shot, this is bad news. It's also bad because of those anti-vaxxers, who will continue to spread the virus, along with those vaccinated, like, do we want another lockdown? I don't think we'll go back there, but I don't see us getting out of the woods anytime soon, even with vaccines, lockdowns, masking and social distancing.

Not spreading fear, just keeping on top of news.

[tomh009]

While I agree that for the most part it's snake oil, though many would disagree with that, but technically and legally they're still "doctors" and have similar training.

They are doctors indeed, but so is my friend who has a PhD in civil engineering. Neither one has medical training or accreditation, though.

[tomh009]

SUNDAY 2021-07-25

Waterloo Region reported nine new cases for today (6.3% of the active cases) and none more for yesterday for 14; 102 new cases for the week (-18 from yesterday and -70 from last week), averaging 8.5% of active cases. 133 active cases, -74 in the last seven days.

Next testing report on Tuesday.

Next vaccination report on Monday.

Ontario reported 172 new cases today with a seven-day average of 159 (+0), compared to 153 a week ago. 144 recoveries and two deaths translated to an increase of 26 active cases and a new total of 1,450. +72 active cases for the week and 19 deaths (three per day). 13,902 tests with a positivity rate of 1.24%. The positivity rate is averaging 0.96% for the past seven days, compared to 0.73% for the preceding seven. 92 patients in ICU (-7 today, -15 for the week) with COVID-19.

New case variants reported today (these are substantially delayed so they do not match the new case numbers):

• Alpha (B.1.1.7): 131
  
• Beta (B.1.351): 3
  
• Delta (B.1.617): 16 (48% of variants over the past 10 days)
  
• Gamma (P.1): 2
  

103,812 doses of vaccine administered, with a seven-day average at 119,749 (previous week was 159,465). 70.53% of total provincial population vaccinated (+0.10% from yesterday, +0.78% from 7 days ago), 58.22% fully vaccinated (+0.61% from yesterday, +4.92% from 7 days ago). 

• 8 cases in Grey Bruce: 4.9 per 100K
  
• 3 cases in Thunder Bay: 2.0 per 100K
  
• 11 cases in Hamilton: 1.9 per 100K
  
• 2 cases in Chatham-Kent: 1.9 per 100K
  
• 11 cases in Durham: 1.7 per 100K
  
• 23 cases in Peel: 1.7 per 100K
  
• 48 cases in Toronto: 1.6 per 100K
  
• 7 cases in Niagara: 1.6 per 100K
  
• 6 cases in Middlesex-London: 1.5 per 100K
  
• 7 cases in Halton: 1.3 per 100K
  
• 7 cases in Waterloo: 1.1 per 100K (based on provincial reporting)
  
• 3 cases in Wellington-Dufferin-Guelph: 1.1 per 100K
  
• 4 cases in Windsor-Essex: 1.0 per 100K
  
• 1 cases in Huron Perth: 1.0 per 100K
  
• 2 cases in Eastern Ontario: 1.0 per 100K
  

[tomh009]

It's pretty clear that we have hit a plateau with the Ontario numbers: the new cases are staying in the high 100s, the active cases are inching up and so are the test positivity rates. The province's estimated Re is now up to 0.99, indicating that we should see a new case follow for every active one. Canadian new cases for the past week are about 10% higher than for the week prior. (Waterloo Region, fortunately, has largely recovered from the mini-peak we hit last month and early this month.)

I expect that this is a combination of Delta having spread everywhere in the province (and country) now, and the opening up of the province to Step 3. The vaccination rates are still going up, but not fast enough to make up for those factors.

And under-20s now make up for over 30% of the Ontario cases, and here the vaccination rates are substantially lower than with the older population. Under-12s are not yet eligible, and the availability for the under-18s is relatively more recent as well. This is probably the biggest opportunity to make an impact easily. As the vaccination rates increase for the total population, that will help as well, but that progress is now going to be much slower than in the last three months.

We can't eradicate Delta, so that leaves the question of reopening. Alberta has shot up from 50 cases/day to 100 in the past week, after a reopening and the Stampede. What will Ontario do? Some of the medical advisors are suggesting that full reopening needs to await reaching a 90% (of eligible population) vaccination level, which would leave us at Step 3 (or something similar) until likely sometime in September. Will Ford listen to the advisors or forge ahead with a full reopening?

   

[Bjays93]

I frankly disagree with referring to Naturopaths as "in the medical field"...as far as I understand they are snake oil salespeople. At the most extreme level of generosity you could call them "wellness", but not medical. There is admittedly significant grey area in the medical field between medical and practitioners like massage therapists and chiropractors, but Naturopaths are firmly outside the medical realm for me.
.

While I agree that for the most part it's snake oil, though many would disagree with that, but technically and legally they're still "doctors" and have similar training.

Either way, though, for those that swear by ND and chiro's and those belonging to the teachers union, we still have a gap of unvaccinated.

What is worrying is that potentially we'll need boosters or perhaps even new vaccines, as it appears covid-19 won't be going away as more breakthrough cases occur. This is an issue. It's an issue for those that aren't anti-vaxxers, but have a real fear of needles (such as my daughter) and it takes everything for them to get a shot, this is bad news. It's also bad because of those anti-vaxxers, who will continue to spread the virus, along with those vaccinated, like, do we want another lockdown? I don't think we'll go back there, but I don't see us getting out of the woods anytime soon, even with vaccines, lockdowns, masking and social distancing.

Not spreading fear, just keeping on top of news.

Also personally I think its important to distinguish between naturopaths and homeopaths. Our naturopathic doctor is obviously not someone we'd see for say a broken arm, but they are fantastic for other health related issues. Our naturopath can administer shots, do a whole series of health related tests, give us information on the levels of vitamins and metals in our bodies and help us supplement that correctly. They can also write prescriptions amongst many other things. 

For me personally, had it not been for my naturopath I would not have known I was vitamin B and D deficient, I would not have easily found out about the fact that I had lyme or been able to easily access the drugs I needed to treat it in both the short and long term. I was able to get IVs when I was really sick and B shots to bring my levels back to normal. These are all things that I wouldn't have been able to access or access easily had it not been for our naturopath. Homeopathy is a different story however. 

Our naturopath has also been strongly encouraging vaccinations.

[Acitta]

While I agree that for the most part it's snake oil, though many would disagree with that, but technically and legally they're still "doctors" and have similar training.

Either way, though, for those that swear by ND and chiro's and those belonging to the teachers union, we still have a gap of unvaccinated.

What is worrying is that potentially we'll need boosters or perhaps even new vaccines, as it appears covid-19 won't be going away as more breakthrough cases occur. This is an issue. It's an issue for those that aren't anti-vaxxers, but have a real fear of needles (such as my daughter) and it takes everything for them to get a shot, this is bad news. It's also bad because of those anti-vaxxers, who will continue to spread the virus, along with those vaccinated, like, do we want another lockdown? I don't think we'll go back there, but I don't see us getting out of the woods anytime soon, even with vaccines, lockdowns, masking and social distancing.

Not spreading fear, just keeping on top of news.

Also personally I think its important to distinguish between naturopaths and homeopaths. Our naturopathic doctor is obviously not someone we'd see for say a broken arm, but they are fantastic for other health related issues. Our naturopath can administer shots, do a whole series of health related tests, give us information on the levels of vitamins and metals in our bodies and help us supplement that correctly. They can also write prescriptions amongst many other things. 

For me personally, had it not been for my naturopath I would not have known I was vitamin B and D deficient, I would not have easily found out about the fact that I had lyme or been able to easily access the drugs I needed to treat it in both the short and long term. I was able to get IVs when I was really sick and B shots to bring my levels back to normal. These are all things that I wouldn't have been able to access or access easily had it not been for our naturopath. Homeopathy is a different story however. 

Our naturopath has also been strongly encouraging vaccinations.

The Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine teaches homeopathy as part of its curriculum, as well as other questionable things like traditional Chinese medicine and acupuncture.

[Bjays93]

Also personally I think its important to distinguish between naturopaths and homeopaths. Our naturopathic doctor is obviously not someone we'd see for say a broken arm, but they are fantastic for other health related issues. Our naturopath can administer shots, do a whole series of health related tests, give us information on the levels of vitamins and metals in our bodies and help us supplement that correctly. They can also write prescriptions amongst many other things. 

For me personally, had it not been for my naturopath I would not have known I was vitamin B and D deficient, I would not have easily found out about the fact that I had lyme or been able to easily access the drugs I needed to treat it in both the short and long term. I was able to get IVs when I was really sick and B shots to bring my levels back to normal. These are all things that I wouldn't have been able to access or access easily had it not been for our naturopath. Homeopathy is a different story however. 

Our naturopath has also been strongly encouraging vaccinations.

The Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine teaches homeopathy as part of its curriculum, as well as other questionable things like traditional Chinese medicine and acupuncture.

This is a side tangent at this point but what's wrong with acupuncture? Like it's not for me but I've never heard anyone refer to it as some sort of voodoo. Obviously you need a really good acupuncturist if you want to get anything out of it, but as with most things you can have people who are good at it and people who suck and generally you dont get results from lower skilled people.

[tomh009]

The Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine teaches homeopathy as part of its curriculum, as well as other questionable things like traditional Chinese medicine and acupuncture.

This is a side tangent at this point but what's wrong with acupuncture? Like it's not for me but I've never heard anyone refer to it as some sort of voodoo. Obviously you need a really good acupuncturist if you want to get anything out of it, but as with most things you can have people who are good at it and people who suck and generally you dont get results from lower skilled people.

There is nothing wrong with believing in acupuncture. Just like there is nothing wrong with believing in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, which promises a beer volcano, among other things, in heaven.

But there is more or less zero scientific evidence for medical benefits of acupuncture. To quote the Wikipedia page:

In January 2020, David Gorski analyzed a 2020 review of systematic reviews ("Acupuncture for the Relief of Chronic Pain: A Synthesis of Systematic Reviews") concerning the use of acupuncture to treat chronic pain. Writing in Science-Based Medicine, Gorski said that its findings highlight the conclusion that acupuncture is "a theatrical placebo whose real history has been retconned beyond recognition." He also said this review "reveals the many weaknesses in the design of acupuncture clinical trials".

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/more-ev...onic-pain/

[Bjays93]

This is a side tangent at this point but what's wrong with acupuncture? Like it's not for me but I've never heard anyone refer to it as some sort of voodoo. Obviously you need a really good acupuncturist if you want to get anything out of it, but as with most things you can have people who are good at it and people who suck and generally you dont get results from lower skilled people.

There is nothing wrong with believing in acupuncture. Just like there is nothing wrong with believing in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, which promises a beer volcano, among other things, in heaven.

But there is more or less zero scientific evidence for medical benefits of acupuncture. To quote the Wikipedia page:

In January 2020, David Gorski analyzed a 2020 review of systematic reviews ("Acupuncture for the Relief of Chronic Pain: A Synthesis of Systematic Reviews") concerning the use of acupuncture to treat chronic pain. Writing in Science-Based Medicine, Gorski said that its findings highlight the conclusion that acupuncture is "a theatrical placebo whose real history has been retconned beyond recognition." He also said this review "reveals the many weaknesses in the design of acupuncture clinical trials".

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/more-ev...onic-pain/

I mean again, I'm not advocating for or against it but the WHO literally recognizes it as an effective form of treatment as does the US health authorities so there's obviously some evidence it works as well. But that's not the point of this thread and I never plan on trying acupuncture so its irrelevant

[jamincan]

The reality is that placebo is a very powerful effect and that people can derive very real benefits from it. While I largely agree with skeptic groups like Science-based Medicine, I think it is a mistake to dismiss treatments that are shown to have no effect beyond placebo as quackery, when patients are shown to derive a benefit, sometimes powerful, regardless. They would argue that on the whole, accepting that "quackery" is harmful to society, outweighing the placebo benefit, but that is largely a doctrine within these groups with, ironically, very little scientific basis.

They tend to also to have blinders when it comes to western medicine's shortcomings. Surgical treatments, for example, have had almost no clinical trials to establish their effectiveness (for pretty clear reasons). The one notable instance where they did a study looking at patients treating osteoarthritis in the knee with arthroscopic surgery, comparing them to a placebo group that underwent the same surgery, but without the actual treatment being completed, found no difference between the groups. Yet, this surgery continues to be performed by the thousands.

[danbrotherston]

The reality is that placebo is a very powerful effect and that people can derive very real benefits from it. While I largely agree with skeptic groups like Science-based Medicine, I think it is a mistake to dismiss treatments that are shown to have no effect beyond placebo as quackery, when patients are shown to derive a benefit, sometimes powerful, regardless. They would argue that on the whole, accepting that "quackery" is harmful to society, outweighing the placebo benefit, but that is largely a doctrine within these groups with, ironically, very little scientific basis.

They tend to also to have blinders when it comes to western medicine's shortcomings. Surgical treatments, for example, have had almost no clinical trials to establish their effectiveness (for pretty clear reasons). The one notable instance where they did a study looking at patients treating osteoarthritis in the knee with arthroscopic surgery, comparing them to a placebo group that underwent the same surgery, but without the actual treatment being completed, found no difference between the groups. Yet, this surgery continues to be performed by the thousands.

No question that the placebo effect is real and has real health impacts. That, I think, is why things like acupuncture are recognized as treatments by the WHO.

But I think it is still important to recognize that they are a placebo and not actually having a direct therapeutic effect. What to do with that knowledge is both a personal question, and a context sensitive broader social question.

On the other tangent...I am really quite shocked that any ethics board would approve surgical clinical trial with a non-treatment control group. Without seeing the study, I don't know, but I assume the trial was between two different surgeries, and possibly not entirely blind. Not the most rigorous study but still a good datapoint.

Surgeries are generally considered to be beneficial without the same blind, controlled, clinical trials for...lets call it heuristic reasons. First, a surgery causes significant harm to the individual, so any benefits derived must outweigh that initial harm. And second, at least in theory, a surgery is physically correcting some defect. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to assume that any positive outcomes as a result of surgery are more likely to be the result of surgery than of placebo. But as we do learn more about both the power of placebo effect and also the importance of how we measure outcomes, that does become more clouded on some more...optional...surgeries. I mean, are numerous types of surgeries confined to the annals of history at this point--this is hardly new.

There are limits of western medicine, our biases being only part of it, and while I believe the scientific method is sound, it should not be our ONLY measure of utility.

[ijmorlan]

There is nothing wrong with believing in acupuncture. Just like there is nothing wrong with believing in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, which promises a beer volcano, among other things, in heaven.

I didn’t know this! I had written off the cult of the Flying Spaghetti Monster as just another sect, but I think I might have to take a closer look now (I don’t drink beer, but assume I would enjoy it in heaven).