Road design, transportation and walkability

[danbrotherston]

I honestly don't know why we cannot get past this sticking point.  Why do you believe that the lack of transit HERE means that nowhere has good transit, and for that matter, that good transit cannot exist?

You even go on to say "well we're not the Netherlands"...almost contradicting your earlier statement. Perhaps you know, and also know that I know, that the Netherlands does indeed have transit that is that good, even if we don't have it here.

And guess what else isn't the Netherlands?  The Netherlands circa 1975.  They were on the same path as us, building car dependent suburbs. They changed course, they built transit and cycling instead, and now cycling combined with transit is faster for most trips in cities. We could do the same thing, it is a choice. There is nothing inherent about the Netherlands that we cannot do here. Their climate is not as nice as you believe, their country is not as flat as you believe, the only meaningful difference is the decisions their leadership has made. As for transit vs. cars...there are thousands of cities on Earth where transit is used more than cars...there are numerous reasons for this, not all of them because transit (plus biking or walking) is better than driving as it is in the Netherlands, but in most cases it is because transit is good.

I'm not suggesting we will get there tomorrow, but we will never get there if we keep making the decisions we have made, instead of the ones they have made.

And just in case you think, well, they're a special case, they are not, other places have followed their lead and successfully build effective transit and cycling infrastructure. Nobody is as far along as they are, but plenty are moving in that direction, even in North America.

How am I “almost” contradicting myself when I say ‘we’re not the Netherlands’? You used it as an example for what Canada could do, despite HUGE differences between the two countries. We can blissfully ignore those differences.

Yet, despite everything that the Netherlands did, and despite higher tax rates for cars (when you purchase, when you buy gas), they still have more than 1 car per household. They also have way more motorways (highways), than say Southern Ontario (I use southern Ontario as an example — 1) close to the same population, 2) only 3 times larger than the Netherlands, as comparing to Canada would be too difficult). And they have once of the most dense roadways in Europe, and they continue to upgrade roads.  Perhaps The Netherlands wasn’t a great example to use.

I have no issue with governments spending money on transit and cycling. I think they should. But they also have to take care of roads as well, and this sometimes means building or widening certain roads because it’s needed.

Something you keep refusing to address though, are these two things: transit cannot be used by the majority of people. Cycling is limited in Canada to about 7 or 8 months. Again, I have no issue with infrastructure spending on these things — but you need to realize that it’s only two components of our transportation system, and acknowledge its limitations, no matter how much we spend.

No acknowledgment of transit disruptions either (either the odd strike or pestilence).

You lose points when you say things like “start tolling cars” and “make transit free” as if somehow punishing people by stealing their time, those that can’t afford to live in some sort of transit corridor, those with elderly families, or those with health issues, is an answer, because it is not. And no country has done that.

Stop hating the car, and stop hating car drivers. We got to where we are, and indeed, and developed nation has, by a combination of great transportation infrastructure, including private vehicles.

I have addressed this in every single comment I've written. You keep claiming thaat transit cannot be used by everyone. This is only true in some places. This is a choice that we have made. Other places have made different choices. If we made different choices, transit would be preferred over driving. There is aboslutely nothing inherent about our city which makes the car the better (if selfish) choice for most people, it is an intentional explicit policy that our government has implemented.

I talk about the Netherlands because I am most familiar with it, but I also mentioned there are examples all over. These are places which have made different choices, and thus have different outcomes...where transit/cycling/walking is preferred over driving in cities.

The "tolling" is not punishing people, nor am I "stealing" anything, unless you want to argue that people who drive cars are "stealing" from society, they are stealing safety, they are stealing clean air, they are stealing space. These are costs that we all pay for drivers to drive, tolling would merely put those costs on drivers. Since when is paying for something that you use "punishment"?

I have no hate of drivers, I do hate car oriented policies, and I hate the continued proliferation of bad transportation policy. That's different from hating drivers.

Then you reiterate the same arguments...it's exhausting and pointless.

So you can repeat yourself one more time without listening, I'm not going to bother after this.