Trails

[Acitta]

IHT at Mill Street.    

[jwilliamson]

New wayfinding signs on the Iron Horse Trail in Kitchener.

   

[cherrypark]

So it appears the city has painted sharks teeth on the IHT crossing on Gage Ave but decided a sign telling our ignorant drivers to yield was a gift too far. I don't assume any drivers here really understand the meaning of those markings to give way, nor are they looking for them.

[danbrotherston]

So it appears the city has painted sharks teeth on the IHT crossing on Gage Ave but decided a sign telling our ignorant drivers to yield was a gift too far. I don't assume any drivers here really understand the meaning of those markings to give way, nor are they looking for them.

Before you make assumptions, maybe a simpler explanation is that the team which does signs comes a different day from the team who does lines.

That crossing, along with Glasgow, Union, Mill, West and others will be getting PXO treatments, and some will also be raised. They painted some of the lines today, but obviously haven't installed signs yet.

[dtkvictim]

So it appears the city has painted sharks teeth on the IHT crossing on Gage Ave but decided a sign telling our ignorant drivers to yield was a gift too far. I don't assume any drivers here really understand the meaning of those markings to give way, nor are they looking for them.

Before you make assumptions, maybe a simpler explanation is that the team which does signs comes a different day from the team who does lines.

That crossing, along with Glasgow, Union, Mill, West and others will be getting PXO treatments, and some will also be raised. They painted some of the lines today, but obviously haven't installed signs yet.

I had full compliance with cars yielding at West, Gage, and Union today. Not sure if any have signs yet or not. Even after it had gotten dark out, and I don't have lights for this bike yet, so I was impressed with the drivers today.

[danbrotherston]

Before you make assumptions, maybe a simpler explanation is that the team which does signs comes a different day from the team who does lines.

That crossing, along with Glasgow, Union, Mill, West and others will be getting PXO treatments, and some will also be raised. They painted some of the lines today, but obviously haven't installed signs yet.

I had full compliance with cars yielding at West, Gage, and Union today. Not sure if any have signs yet or not. Even after it had gotten dark out, and I don't have lights for this bike yet, so I was impressed with the drivers today.

Lol...At west, no cars yielded to me, at Glasgow where there is no work done yet, I had a car yield and refuse to proceed.

Honestly, I don't think the signs or markings will change much, they only make a small change to the context of the intersection. What does change, is legal liability.

[timc]

So it appears the city has painted sharks teeth on the IHT crossing on Gage Ave but decided a sign telling our ignorant drivers to yield was a gift too far. I don't assume any drivers here really understand the meaning of those markings to give way, nor are they looking for them.

Are they shark teeth, or the opposite teeth used for a raised crossing?

[cherrypark]

So it appears the city has painted sharks teeth on the IHT crossing on Gage Ave but decided a sign telling our ignorant drivers to yield was a gift too far. I don't assume any drivers here really understand the meaning of those markings to give way, nor are they looking for them.

Before you make assumptions, maybe a simpler explanation is that the team which does signs comes a different day from the team who does lines.

That crossing, along with Glasgow, Union, Mill, West and others will be getting PXO treatments, and some will also be raised. They painted some of the lines today, but obviously haven't installed signs yet.

Possibly, though it has been a while since they were completed. May be misdirecting a gripe generally that IHT crossings routinely get the shaft for the one major cycling route in town (e.g. - at Park, Victoria, Glasgow, etc). At least there is something there now as without direction that crossing routinely has confusion from drivers and riders about RoW along with some relatively poor sight lines on the approach.

If it is the case they are getting something better signalled like the Park St crossing at Cherry Park, that would be a very welcome improvement. Do you know which will be raised? That treatment is the kind of thing I was hoping this crossing would get and calming measures like that seem far more effective to affect driver behaviour than lines/signs (as you noted).

[danbrotherston]

Before you make assumptions, maybe a simpler explanation is that the team which does signs comes a different day from the team who does lines.

That crossing, along with Glasgow, Union, Mill, West and others will be getting PXO treatments, and some will also be raised. They painted some of the lines today, but obviously haven't installed signs yet.

Possibly, though it has been a while since they were completed. May be misdirecting a gripe generally that IHT crossings routinely get the shaft for the one major cycling route in town (e.g. - at Park, Victoria, Glasgow, etc). At least there is something there now as without direction that crossing routinely has confusion from drivers and riders about RoW along with some relatively poor sight lines on the approach.

If it is the case they are getting something better signalled like the Park St crossing at Cherry Park, that would be a very welcome improvement. Do you know which will be raised? That treatment is the kind of thing I was hoping this crossing would get and calming measures like that seem far more effective to affect driver behaviour than lines/signs (as you noted).

Sorry, I meant to reply to this yesterday.  As far as I know, they've been painted very recently, the signs will definitely be going up soon. Yes, IHT does routinely get the shaft, but I know the CoK staff who are involved and are doing what they can (within the confines of truly awful provincial legislation and regional transportation planning), and FWIW they are making significant improvements at  many crossings.

The details of what each crossing will get are here:

   

One thing of note, the raised crossings will be true raised crossings, where the trail does not have to go down to the level of the road first. They did this on the trail out to Sobeys and it was very poor, so I think they now recognize that a better design is needed.

[cherrypark]

Sorry, I meant to reply to this yesterday.  As far as I know, they've been painted very recently, the signs will definitely be going up soon. Yes, IHT does routinely get the shaft, but I know the CoK staff who are involved and are doing what they can (within the confines of truly awful provincial legislation and regional transportation planning), and FWIW they are making significant improvements at  many crossings.

The details of what each crossing will get are here:

One thing of note, the raised crossings will be true raised crossings, where the trail does not have to go down to the level of the road first. They did this on the trail out to Sobeys and it was very poor, so I think they now recognize that a better design is needed.

Great! Thanks Dan, these will be very welcome. If you mean the raised crossing on Patricia, I would agree it wasn't the best execution but a welcome experiment/progress in that direction compared to the historical standard. These will much improve the IHT user experience.

Now if we could only get the region to think again about the Victoria St. crossing...

[danbrotherston]

Sorry, I meant to reply to this yesterday.  As far as I know, they've been painted very recently, the signs will definitely be going up soon. Yes, IHT does routinely get the shaft, but I know the CoK staff who are involved and are doing what they can (within the confines of truly awful provincial legislation and regional transportation planning), and FWIW they are making significant improvements at  many crossings.

The details of what each crossing will get are here:

One thing of note, the raised crossings will be true raised crossings, where the trail does not have to go down to the level of the road first. They did this on the trail out to Sobeys and it was very poor, so I think they now recognize that a better design is needed.

Great! Thanks Dan, these will be very welcome. If you mean the raised crossing on Patricia, I would agree it wasn't the best execution but a welcome experiment/progress in that direction compared to the historical standard. These will much improve the IHT user experience.

Now if we could only get the region to think again about the Victoria St. crossing...

Yes, the raised crossing at Patricia. I agree, that I'm glad the city is moving forward, but I find the execution so problematic, as to make the crossing worse than nothing---especially at that location. The ride for cyclists is so harsh I spend more attention ON maintaining balance than I do on the crossing, which is obviously a bad thing.  I'm very happy that city staff took critical feedback on that crossing and decided to implement the (much more expensive) level raised crossings. I'm told they even have budget to redo the Patricia crossing properly.

That being said, I'm REALLY impressed they are doing a raised crossing on Glasgow. Initially, they did not put a raised crossing at West because "There's too much traffic" which is like...no, that's where you NEED the raised crossing BECAUSE of the traffic (I rarely ever even encounter a car on Patricia). So I'm very happy to see a reversal on this thinking as well. FWIW, I'd rather see them raise the West crossing than fix the Patricia crossing, but honestly, I'm just nitpicking, staff have really exceeded my expectations here.

As for the Victoria crossing, yeah, it really is poor. It's certainly a challenging one, the region isn't willing to actually make the right choices there, but there are also alignment challenges. I'd say the implementation is quite poor, even outside of the scope of the region, but I don't expect to see it improve in the short term, and I don't think it will change in the medium or long term without staffing changes at the region or a direct instruction from council.

[cherrypark]

Yes, the raised crossing at Patricia. I agree, that I'm glad the city is moving forward, but I find the execution so problematic, as to make the crossing worse than nothing---especially at that location. The ride for cyclists is so harsh I spend more attention ON maintaining balance than I do on the crossing, which is obviously a bad thing.  I'm very happy that city staff took critical feedback on that crossing and decided to implement the (much more expensive) level raised crossings. I'm told they even have budget to redo the Patricia crossing properly.

That being said, I'm REALLY impressed they are doing a raised crossing on Glasgow. Initially, they did not put a raised crossing at West because "There's too much traffic" which is like...no, that's where you NEED the raised crossing BECAUSE of the traffic (I rarely ever even encounter a car on Patricia). So I'm very happy to see a reversal on this thinking as well. FWIW, I'd rather see them raise the West crossing than fix the Patricia crossing, but honestly, I'm just nitpicking, staff have really exceeded my expectations here.

As for the Victoria crossing, yeah, it really is poor. It's certainly a challenging one, the region isn't willing to actually make the right choices there, but there are also alignment challenges. I'd say the implementation is quite poor, even outside of the scope of the region, but I don't expect to see it improve in the short term, and I don't think it will change in the medium or long term without staffing changes at the region or a direct instruction from council.

Yeah I really wish both the city and the region could better integrate the grade for cycling infra at road crossings generally. The fact its the same here somehow while being raised was a head scratcher. That or someone setting the design standards has an invested interest in wrist injury therapy. It is bad enough getting from sidewalk to road in a wheelchair or stroller let alone rolling at any appreciable rate of speed on a bike.

[Acitta]

So here is the IHT crossing on Mill St. which they finished yesterday. It is raised, but not so much that anyone would notice. I barely noticed it on my bike. Maybe it is half an inch. Certainly not more than an inch.    

[danbrotherston]

Yes, the raised crossing at Patricia. I agree, that I'm glad the city is moving forward, but I find the execution so problematic, as to make the crossing worse than nothing---especially at that location. The ride for cyclists is so harsh I spend more attention ON maintaining balance than I do on the crossing, which is obviously a bad thing.  I'm very happy that city staff took critical feedback on that crossing and decided to implement the (much more expensive) level raised crossings. I'm told they even have budget to redo the Patricia crossing properly.

That being said, I'm REALLY impressed they are doing a raised crossing on Glasgow. Initially, they did not put a raised crossing at West because "There's too much traffic" which is like...no, that's where you NEED the raised crossing BECAUSE of the traffic (I rarely ever even encounter a car on Patricia). So I'm very happy to see a reversal on this thinking as well. FWIW, I'd rather see them raise the West crossing than fix the Patricia crossing, but honestly, I'm just nitpicking, staff have really exceeded my expectations here.

As for the Victoria crossing, yeah, it really is poor. It's certainly a challenging one, the region isn't willing to actually make the right choices there, but there are also alignment challenges. I'd say the implementation is quite poor, even outside of the scope of the region, but I don't expect to see it improve in the short term, and I don't think it will change in the medium or long term without staffing changes at the region or a direct instruction from council.

Yeah I really wish both the city and the region could better integrate the grade for cycling infra at road crossings generally. The fact its the same here somehow while being raised was a head scratcher. That or someone setting the design standards has an invested interest in wrist injury therapy. It is bad enough getting from sidewalk to road in a wheelchair or stroller let alone rolling at any appreciable rate of speed on a bike.

The poor design of the raised crossing at Patricia is because of drainage/cost. If they raise the whole roadway, they need to install new storm drains on both sides of the raised section. This is exactly what they will do on future raised crossings but it significantly increases the cost.

I think staff now appreciate that the old cheaper design is so bad as to be worth doing it right.

[danbrotherston]

So here is the IHT crossing on Mill St. which they finished yesterday. It is raised, but not so much that anyone would notice. I barely noticed it on my bike. Maybe it is half an inch. Certainly not more than an inch.

It's raised 6 inches....up to the level of the curb. You can see it along the picture you showed, along the left edge, where the level of the roadway goes from the normal level at the curb, up to flush with the curb, curbs are about 6 inches high, so there is a ~6 inch rise. It's gradual, because the design speed is ~30km/h. You'll notice it a little on a bike, but if you're in a car going much faster, you'll want to slow down to no around 30.