Toronto transit projects

[DHLawrence]

Maybe they're betting on Alstom getting more contracts in the coming years.

[Canard]

And so, the dream of a unified GTHA vehicle fleet dies.

I was really looking forward to a unified look and feel across all the GTHA+KW LRTs.

^ +1

[Canard]

How would this even work? By the time they'll know which line the trains are for won't the platforms, etc be in place and require adjusting to fit a different vehicle?

That's the beauty of building a standard LRT system (as opposed to say, skytrain).  All the vehicles made by many different manufacturers are close enough to the same tolerances to make them inter-operable.

...which could be true if they'd gone with another type of Citadis, but if they're using the Spirit (Ottawa) vehicle (which sounds like they are, just to rush it through), then there are all sorts of complications that will arise. As one example, they'll have to totally reconfigure the maintenance pits at the OMSF for the vehicle lifts - there are lifts that are mounted within the concrete (totally integrated into the foundation) that align with the first, third and fifth modules on the 5-module FLEXITY. This is to lift up the train so that the bogies can be rolled out-exchanged. Citadis Spirit is a super-weird 4-module LRV with two bogies on the second module, and single bogies (trailered, articulated) on the other 3. The doors are also in non-standard locations (totally asymetric) because of the wheel configuration, and the length is different, so you can't have platform screen doors, if you decided to do that one day.

I just can't wrap my head around the fact that the 182 LRV's they have on order already from Bombardier is about 50% too many for what they actually need.... and now they've ordered another 60+.  If ML can't cancel the order, and BBD pulls through, ML will have wasted close to a billion dollars on trains that will sit unused somewhere.  The only plausable thing I can think they're trying to do is use this as an excuse like "Oh, well I guess we HAVE to build more LRT lines, then!  Surprise, Scarborough, wouldn't make much sense to build a 1-stop subway now would it?" etc...

Metrolinx is playing this like a cheating wife who is running off with her new handsome French soccer-playing boyfriend (Alstom) while her hard-working husband (Bombardier) is pulling 60 hour work weeks. It is sickening.

[KevinL]

The only plausable thing I can think they're trying to do is use this as an excuse like "Oh, well I guess we HAVE to build more LRT lines, then!  Surprise, Scarborough, wouldn't make much sense to build a 1-stop subway now would it?" etc...

I like this thought, at least.

[Canard]

Yeah, it's potentially the only silver lining in this.

The Alstom stuff is so... aseptic. Just really not a fan of their design language at all. Can't get on board.

[ijmorlan]

Metrolinx is playing this like a cheating wife who is running off with her new handsome French soccer-playing boyfriend (Alstom) while her hard-working husband (Bombardier) is pulling 60 hour work weeks. It is sickening.

Except that the husband claims to be hard working but somehow never brings the dough home. Recently he has started bringing a little home but there is some doubt as to whether he really has the job he says he has.

While I agree that MetroLinx is incompetent, I don’t understand why anybody would consider Bombardier to be less than at least an equal partner in creating this situation.

[KingandWeber]

That's the beauty of building a standard LRT system (as opposed to say, skytrain).  All the vehicles made by many different manufacturers are close enough to the same tolerances to make them inter-operable.

I just can't wrap my head around the fact that the 182 LRV's they have on order already from Bombardier is about 50% too many for what they actually need.... and now they've ordered another 60+.  If ML can't cancel the order, and BBD pulls through, ML will have wasted close to a billion dollars on trains that will sit unused somewhere.  The only plausable thing I can think they're trying to do is use this as an excuse like "Oh, well I guess we HAVE to build more LRT lines, then!  Surprise, Scarborough, wouldn't make much sense to build a 1-stop subway now would it?" etc...

Metrolinx is playing this like a cheating wife who is running off with her new handsome French soccer-playing boyfriend (Alstom) while her hard-working husband (Bombardier) is pulling 60 hour work weeks. It is sickening.

I think you're letting Bombardier off far too easily in this, but feel free to correct me. From what I gather, Metrolinx is actually genuinely worried Bombardier will not meet delivery targets. Bombardier has failed miserably to deliver a working prototype, let alone shown signs it will be capable of producing all the LRVs needed on time. This whole ordeal is precipitated by Bombardier's manufacturing failures.

Now here's my view of things based on what has occurred with the injunction business. Bombardier hasn't cared to fix its issues with any haste (read: at significant cost) because it had Metrolinx between a rock and a hard place. Why? Two reasons. First, by the time Metrolinx pursued arbitration to its conclusion, Bombardier would be the only manufacturer left who could meet Metrolinx's needs within any reasonable time frame, even if it would still be late. Second, Metrolinx owes up to $500,000/day to the Crosstown consortium for every day it fails to provide them with a set of vehicles. Together, these facts mean that even if Metrolinx won arbitration because Bombardier is in fact failing to manufacture fast enough, they'd actually lose more money by having to order a new set of trains from that date. So Bombardier was sitting pretty and saw no reason to speed up its manufacturing, as that would cost it more than the penalty it owes to Metrolinx for being late.

Now, you can say that it is Metrolinx's fault for not drafting a better contract with Bombardier. And I agree. Metrolinx should have required that Bombardier pay any penalty it owed to the Crosstown consortium if it failed to deliver on time or provided a mechanism to cancel without arbitration in circumstances such as those that it now finds itself. However, to pretend Bombardier was innocent in this whole seems quite unfair. Bombardier is not meeting the contractual terms and Metrolinx (taxpayers in reality) is paying the price. 

So Metrolinx is rightfully angry and it is taking action by doing a side deal with Alstom, probably half out of spite and half out of genuine concern. Is it the best course? Time will tell. Metrolinx is probably hoping through arbitration it can cut out some of the trains from its order, but who knows if that's realistic. Hopefully it is because otherwise, as others pointed out, we'll be stuck with unused trains. Either way, you can bet Metrolinx learned a valuable lesson in drafting contracts through all of this.

[tomh009]

I just can't wrap my head around the fact that the 182 LRV's they have on order already from Bombardier is about 50% too many for what they actually need.... and now they've ordered another 60+.

This is what I can't understand, either.  They already have too many trains on the way, and now they order more?
Regardless of who might be at fault, either legally or morally, this makes no sense at all.

[Markster]

My bet is they're gambling on being able to cancel a large portion of the Bombardier contract.

[tomh009]

I expect so, too. But should a crown corporation like Metrolinx really be gambling?

[jamincan]

There are quite a few projects in the pipelines outside of Metrolinx as well that might be able to make use of any extra trainsets. How many vehicles can we handle at the OMSF? Maybe we can get a sweetheart deal on extra vehicles and double our frequency for a bargain.

[Canard]

As long as we take the Flexities, I'm happy with that!

[Canard]

A couple of the new Subway Stations are open today.

[tomh009]

A nice article on the signaling changes for the Toronto subway:
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/tor...e35174381/

[KevinL]

Three teams have been shortlisted to DBFOM the Hurontario LRT. http://infrastructureontario.ca/Short-Li...l-Transit/

One of them has many of the same partners as GrandLinq; Trillium Transit Partners - Keolis, Kiewit, Mass Electric, etc.