Winter Walking and Cycling

[jeffster]

I was looking around, and this is something that Toronto does:

Quote:

City of Toronto Snow Clearing

Print

If you are a senior or person with a disability living in the city core and require the sidewalk snow clearing service, please download the application form and submit it along with the required documentation. If you have any questions about the form, the service or are unable to print the form, please contact 311. (This service is available in some parts of Toronto, York and East York only).

Here is a brief description of what you can expect:

High pedestrian volume sidewalks will be cleared when the snow has stopped and the accumulation has reached two centimetres (approximately one inch). High pedestrian volume sidewalks are sidewalks on arterial roads, transit routes, near school zones and around accessibility locations.

Low pedestrian volume sidewalks will be cleared when the snow has stopped and the accumulation has reached eight centimetres (approximately 3 inches). Low pedestrian volume sidewalks are sidewalks on local roads.

Generally, it takes approximately thirteen hours to clear sidewalks after a snowfall. However, depending on the severity of the storm, sidewalks may have to be cleared more than once.

This service can take up to 72 hours after the snow has stopped.

The service does not include the clearing of snow from driveways or private approaches (private sidewalks) leading to a residence.

If your property is a corner lot, the sidewalk on the flank will not necessarily be cleared at the same time as the sidewalk at the front. This work is sometimes performed by different equipment.

While every attempt is made to clear all the residences on the service within 72 hours, if your sidewalk has not been cleared after 72 hours after the end of a snowfall, please call 311 and staff will place your address on our “missed list” and crews will be scheduled to attend and clear the sidewalk.

-- End of Quote

Interesting thing that I do see too is what are the requirements are for the snow to be removed: 2 cm for busy sidewalks, and 8 cm for low volume sidewalks.

Another point of Mr. Davey's last post was about clearing your sidewalk because you're already doing you driveway. I will say, I think everyone does this. That is, if they're shovelling their driveway, they're not going to skip the sidewalk. Who pulls that type of crap?

However, people don't always clear their driveway down to the cement when we're getting the type of weather that we have gotten. And sidewalks can be worse than driveways if pedestrians have already compressed the snow/slush into a 3" thick slab of ice.

Again, times have changed. As I mentioned before, when I was going to school, and if I were to believe my parents and grandparents when they went to school, sidewalk clearing wasn't something that was normally done to the 'bare cement'. I started to see sidewalks again in mid to late February when the sun was powerful enough to start melting those spots. I get that more people are using sidewalks now during the winter months, but the city needs to look at better ways to help keep the sidewalks clear -- this is especially true of corner lots where plough operators discard snow from the roads.

[the_councillor]

This argument isn't lost on me.  I suppose I disagree with the distinction between what is the "City's" and what is the "Resident's".  In my mind, we are one.  We're owned, controled, and voted in by the residents to be caretakers of our city, with a mission to make it the best we can.  I don't see parks and trails as "city" property, it's everyone's property, same as roads community centres, libraries, and yes sidewalks.

Yes, the sidewalk is on the boulevard, so it is actually also "city property" (or "everyone's property"), the same as roads, community centres and libraries. So the question is, why do we make the distinction and download the responsibility for clearing those to the people who live in the houses next to the sidewalks?

As jeffster pointed out, this is not the 50s any more. More people are working, there are more single-parent families and more older people. And our expectations for making the city accessible to everyone are also (I hope) higher than they would have been in the 50s.

In any case, I think everyone (?) can hopefully agree that the current bylaw/enforcement is not achieving its goals, so what next?

I don't agree (yet) that proactive bylaw is not achieving its goals.  There's only been like 3-4 significant snowfalls and all in the last 6-8 weeks.  Proactive bylaw inspection is about changing behaviours, and that takes time.  No one that understood the program expected clear sidewalks everywhere 6 weeks after beginning.  I personally think it will take another year to see reasonable compliance.  It may not work, we'll know better in May when the report comes back, but data has shown that those that get a warning, do indeed change.

I'm unsure what to say about the downloading/"not the 50's anymore" sentiment except to say the overwhelming majority of people that have contacted me on this do not want the city to do this work.  They have said they're out clearing their driveway anyway, and we can't even clear the roads well, cut park-grass often enough, cut tree-limbs over sidewalks, replace broken/heaved sidewalks quickly enough etc., why we would add a new service before spending on those?
 
Regardless, cities with municipally cleared sidewalks are not significantly better off.  This is the poor-value argument.  I wish everyone could see the sidewalks in London/Guelph etc. right now, I have... 5 days after the snow and many areas are just as bad as here.  This is the key point that keeps getting lost.  I want clear sidewalks, but I'm against paying millions for a city-wide service that also doesn't work!  There is no good solution yet but copying failed approaches elsewhere is worse than doing nothing.  Of course, doing nothing won't advance us either though so to your 'what next' question... I'm only one councillor but I think we need to do several things:

- Revise the impossible "bare concrete" expectation as mentioned.

- With this new expectation-- just one warning per lifetime before the city clears & fines.  (To expedite proactive bylaw behaviour-change.)

- Fine reduction when the city clears to cost recovery.  (Something reasonable like $50.)

- Explore different "clear by" timing.  (24hrs from cessation can permit long stretches while uncleared.)

- Expansion of city-clearing of key priority transit routes.  (Please note bus stops and Regional roads aren't under my jurisdiction.)

- Ensure a comprehensive assistance program for those unable.

[ijmorlan]

It's quite literally the only service we ask of those physically able.[/font][/size][/color]

And what we keep trying to tell you is, we (large fraction of us) would rather pay a tiny amount of money to the City to do the job for us. And if we discount the opinion of anyone who is against the City doing the job but who doesn’t currently maintain their sidewalk to a reasonable standard, we’re probably at 90%+ support for City sidewalk clearing.

Here’s another idea: allow any property owner with sidewalk to opt out of City sidewalk clearing, and get an appropriate rebate on their taxes. Now to anyone who complains their taxes are going up you can just point to the rebate.

Of course, this would make enforcement really easy: bylaw would just visit the opted-out properties and ticket them. The snow plow operators could observe the state of such properties: raise the plow blade at the property boundary, put it back down at the other side of the property, and let bylaw know if the property owner hasn’t cleared it yet.

How many people would actually opt out? So few it wouldn’t be worth running the opt-out program, making it a thought experiment, not a serious proposal.

And in a sensible world, the idea of having everybody clear their own sidewalk would be a thought experiment, not a serious proposal.

[danbrotherston]

See you've got it backwards. What people should do if they are good caring citizens is get together and shovel off the road in front of their houses. Save tax dollars and get even more exercise! Live near a park; you gotta go shovel that too if you walk your dog there or run on the paths.

This argument isn't lost on me.  I suppose I disagree with the distinction between what is the "City's" and what is the "Resident's".  In my mind, we are one.  We're owned, controled, and voted in by the residents to be caretakers of our city, with a mission to make it the best we can.  I don't see parks and trails as "city" property, it's everyone's property, same as roads community centres, libraries, and yes sidewalks.

Surely it's impractical to ask residents cut grass in our parks, or shovel snow on our roads due to the amount of work but it's not impractical to ask them to do their part for their city in clearing their sidewalk.  In most cases people are clearing the driveway anyway, it takes little time to do your sidewalk as well.  It's quite literally the only service we ask of those physically able.

It is impractical to ask them to clear sidewalks.  This is conclusively proven by the decades of efforts to achieve it, and the complete 100% failure to achieve clear walkable sidewalk at any time during the winter.

When do you admit failure?

[danbrotherston]

Yes, the sidewalk is on the boulevard, so it is actually also "city property" (or "everyone's property"), the same as roads, community centres and libraries. So the question is, why do we make the distinction and download the responsibility for clearing those to the people who live in the houses next to the sidewalks?

As jeffster pointed out, this is not the 50s any more. More people are working, there are more single-parent families and more older people. And our expectations for making the city accessible to everyone are also (I hope) higher than they would have been in the 50s.

In any case, I think everyone (?) can hopefully agree that the current bylaw/enforcement is not achieving its goals, so what next?

I don't agree (yet) that proactive bylaw is not achieving its goals.  There's only been like 3-4 significant snowfalls and all in the last 6-8 weeks.  Proactive bylaw inspection is about changing behaviours, and that takes time.  No one that understood the program expected clear sidewalks everywhere 6 weeks after beginning.  I personally think it will take another year to see reasonable compliance.  It may not work, we'll know better in May when the report comes back, but data has shown that those that get a warning, do indeed change.

I'm unsure what to say about the downloading/"not the 50's anymore" sentiment except to say the overwhelming majority of people that have contacted me on this do not want the city to do this work.  They have said they're out clearing their driveway anyway, and we can't even clear the roads well, cut park-grass often enough, cut tree-limbs over sidewalks, replace broken/heaved sidewalks quickly enough etc., why we would add a new service before spending on those?
 
Regardless, cities with municipally cleared sidewalks are not significantly better off.  This is the poor-value argument.  I wish everyone could see the sidewalks in London/Guelph etc. right now, I have... 5 days after the snow and many areas are just as bad as here.  This is the key point that keeps getting lost.  I want clear sidewalks, but I'm against paying millions for a city-wide service that also doesn't work!  There is no good solution yet but copying failed approaches elsewhere is worse than doing nothing.  Of course, doing nothing won't advance us either though so to your 'what next' question... I'm only one councillor but I think we need to do several things:

- Revise the impossible "bare concrete" expectation as mentioned.

- With this new expectation-- just one warning per lifetime before the city clears & fines.  (To expedite proactive bylaw behaviour-change.)

- Fine reduction when the city clears to cost recovery.  (Something reasonable like $50.)

- Explore different "clear by" timing.  (24hrs from cessation can permit long stretches while uncleared.)

- Expansion of city-clearing of key priority transit routes.  (Please note bus stops and Regional roads aren't under my jurisdiction.)

- Ensure a comprehensive assistance program for those unable.

First of all, proactive bylaw will fail because the bylaw is garbage, I already explained this during the last meeting we had on this issue, and I was derided and dismissed, you didn't even consider the points I brought up.

Second, proactive bylaw will never achieve it's ends because targeted enforcement doesn't even achieve that ends for the reported properties.  How many properties are continually reported, how long is the reporting queue (I was told it was 1000s long this week).  

Third, I HAVE seen the sidewalks in London, because I lived there, and although I complained at the time, and I think they should be better, they are far far better than here.  I wish YOU could see the sidewalks I have to walk on every day.  I have heard many complaints from Guelph, but interestingly they have the same number of sidewalk plows per sidewalk km as we have.  We could probably achieve their LOS without additional equipment--so it shouldn't be a surprise that their sidewalks aren't amazing.

I have also lived in and visited multiple other cities with municipally cleared sidewalks and I can assure you that it does indeed work. Just as it does here in DTK, on trails, and on backlotted streets. You're arguing something doesn't work when we all see the evidence that it does....

Fourth, we already pay millions. We do so through labor--that labor does have value.  You are choosing the most wasteful possible policy, and the only reason it looks cheap to you is because you're ignoring labor costs. Even more, we drive plows around doing nothing just to clear the few spots that nobody else can be forced to clear, even more waste.

As for your enhancements, bare concrete isn't always necessary, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that someone in a walker probably needs bare concrete eventually.  Worse, concrete that isn't bare will end up with ice on it after a few melt-thaw cycles.  How do you bylaw that away?  Do you continue re-inspecting properties continuously even if it hasn't snowed?  What's the requirement to remove ice after a few weeks? For municipal clearing, I see bare pavement everywhere in DTK and on all our trails, clearly it is possible to achieve that with municipal clearing.

The fines are already based on cost recovery, this is according to your own bylaw department, so suggesting a cheaper fine suggests you don't even know or believe what they're saying.

Expanding city clearing of transit and priority routes?  You wrote extensively about how city clearing doesn't and can't work--in fact you declared it in this very comment, so are you now admitting that's not true?

Also, the city is indeed responsible for clearing backlotted sidewalks on Regional roads....up until recently the city was actually responsible for building those sidewalks as well.  That is clearly your jurisdiction.  Ironically many regional roads are back lotted and have some of the clearest sidewalks in the city.

Good day.

[ijmorlan]

Regardless, cities with municipally cleared sidewalks are not significantly better off.  This is the poor-value argument.  I wish everyone could see the sidewalks in London/Guelph etc. right now, I have... 5 days after the snow and many areas are just as bad as here.  This is the key point that keeps getting lost.  I want clear sidewalks, but I'm against paying millions for a city-wide service that also doesn't work!  There is no good solution yet but copying failed approaches elsewhere is worse than doing nothing.  Of course, doing nothing won't advance us either though so to your 'what next' question... I'm only one councillor but I think we need to do several things:

I don’t know about other cities, but I do know that paths and sidewalks near me which are cleared municipally are much better than the sidewalks people here are complaining about. All you have to do is clear all the sidewalks exactly the way current municipal sidewalk clearing programs clear some of the sidewalks.

And as already argued extensively, this is cheaper than having thousands of people each clear some tiny fraction, and then having enforcement infrastructure to follow up on the ones who don’t do it.

Any argument about municipally-cleared sidewalks not being done properly is fraudulent. You can always point at somebody and say we don’t want to do it badly like them, but when there is an established fact that the municipalities are able to clear (some) sidewalks successfully in our city, for you to, in effect, claim that it’s impossible doesn’t look like good-faith argumentation to me. Nobody, to my knowledge, is asking to copy failed approaches elsewhere, but instead to copy successful approaches already in use and known to work in this city.

[clasher]

Surely it's impractical to ask residents cut grass in our parks, or shovel snow on our roads due to the amount of work but it's not impractical to ask them to do their part for their city in clearing their sidewalk.  In most cases people are clearing the driveway anyway, it takes little time to do your sidewalk as well.  It's quite literally the only service we ask of those physically able.

There's no bylaw against leaving your driveway snow-covered if you feel like, and if you leave the car(s) close to the sidewalk you don't have a whole that needs to get shoveled to get out. If you go on holiday it doesn't impact anyone else if the driveway is snow-covered and you don't get fined if the driveway isn't cleared to bare pavement. It is impractical to find someone for a week to shovel your sidewalk if you go on a cruise or have to work out of town for a few weeks. If someone lives on a corner lot they probably shovel more sidewalk than they do driveway.

I would pay more taxes for consistently clear sidewalks. I know streets aren't perfectly cleared and that side streets take longer to get plowed... dunno why that would be any different for sidewalks. I know it won't be perfect but growing up in Guelph with the cleared they did I was able to walk to school and had to so even when they cancelled buses. Walking to school for my last 3 years in Kitchener wasn't as easy, even though in spots sidewalks were done well, especially if it was a big commercial place that paid for good service. In other spots there weren't even sidewalks (Ottawa street near Concordia club back in the 90s) so yeah... seems like walkers just don't matter enough to merit municipally provided services.

[Spokes]

As a non-profit site, we are all volunteers, and unfortunately none of the mods were online earlier this evening. 


FYI: New members' posts are initially moderated to enable us manage the spam levels, not to block discussion.

Ahhh... so I shouldn't wait long going forward?  That's better, Thanks!

Hi Scott, I'm glad you found your way over here.  Welcome to WRConnected.  Like Tom said, in an attempt to (successfully I might add) deal with some spam issues, that's what we've done.  Your first few posts will need approved, then never again.

Ahhh... so I shouldn't wait long going forward?  That's better, Thanks!

There are not so many mods, so no guarantees. Moderation status might last for a week, not sure on that. In the meantime, will try to check in more frequently.

For the record, this is the absolute worst case scenario.  I think for this to happen all mods would have to be out of town away from a computer at the same time.

[Spokes]

I just want to chime in and give my two cents:

I personally have no problem whatsoever clearing my sidewalk.  As I've mentioned before, ours is the clearest on our street, always down to the concrete, full-width.  It takes me about 30 seconds to do on top of my driveway and since I stay on top of it, it never gets to the point where it's a chore.

THAT BEING SAID, I HATE the current system because I feel like I can't even go on vacation or up to visit my parents for a weekend, because... what if it snows?  Then I'm screwed, I'll get dinged.  So I live in fear, and am frantically out there constantly worrying all winter that I'm going to break the rules that the City has set up.  They've turned what should be a positive thing into a negative thing and making people live in fear seems like an absolutely terrible way to run a community.

So there needs to be a severe adjustment in the method of ticketing and enforcement.

I initially thought this but then I looked around my neighbourhood and realized there was ZERO enforcement, or just some property owners didn't care about the risks.  And so I stopped worrying.  99.9% of the time my sidewalk is cleared.  

Maybe your neighbourhood is different.  

I just won't let the city make me worry all the time. 

There are so many reasons to support city wide clearing of sidewalks, but for me, from a purely selfish reason, there are a hundred things I'd rather do with my time than shovel snow.  So paying a small fee to have it taken care of, I'm good with that.

[DiDiUpTown]

City owns the sidewalks, But we clear for them currently. Too many unable or don't care. Small addition to property taxes. City clearing is a win for everyone, including the city.

[jeffster]

1) Revise the impossible "bare concrete" expectation as mentioned.

2) With this new expectation-- just one warning per lifetime before the city clears & fines.  (To expedite proactive bylaw behaviour-change.)

3) Fine reduction when the city clears to cost recovery.  (Something reasonable like $50.)

4) Explore different "clear by" timing.  (24hrs from cessation can permit long stretches while uncleared.)

5) Expansion of city-clearing of key priority transit routes.  (Please note bus stops and Regional roads aren't under my jurisdiction.)

6)Ensure a comprehensive assistance program for those unable.

1) Good idea -- though I have the feeling that bylaw wants "bare concrete" this to avoid 'slip and falls'.
2) Not liking the one warning per lifetime -- many reasons why someone (who we assume is abled body) doesn't clear snow in a timely fashion that are beyond their control.
3) Good idea, as fines should be based on costs to city.
4) Good idea -- how does one implement this though, if we're getting back-to-back-to-back storm systems. Doesn't need to be a 'large' event, just 5 cm of snow, 2 mm of rain and 2 mm of freezing rain followed by a deep freeze -- this equals hell for everyone.
5) Good idea -- even as of last night, many stops were still snowed in.
6) Good idea -- this needs to be a reality though, as there is nothing in place.

I think the people that you find on this site are real stewards on their cities, neighbourhoods, etc. Everyone here puts a lot of effort into their posts and generally all have great ideas. Many of the people calling you telling you NOT to have city plowed sidewalks are NOT stewards of the city -- they're stewards of their wallet only. They don't post here, and generally don't care for city services at all, be it community centres, arena's, sports fields and the like. They're like John Gazzola -- zero interest in investing in this city, its citizens and its employees. I know you're not like that.

[MidTowner]

...
 
Regardless, cities with municipally cleared sidewalks are not significantly better off.  This is the poor-value argument.  I wish everyone could see the sidewalks in London/Guelph etc. right now, I have... 5 days after the snow and many areas are just as bad as here.  This is the key point that keeps getting lost.  I want clear sidewalks, but I'm against paying millions for a city-wide service that also doesn't work! ...

I'm originally a Londoner and most of my extended family still lives there. I was in London today. On my father's '60s-era crescent with a sidewalk on only one side, where relatively few residents walk most places, the sidewalk had been cleared. When I asked him, he told me that the plow had come by some time on Thursday.

Commissioners Road East had been cleared; Wharncliffe Road South had been cleared. They were not cleared to the pavement in most places, but where they weren't it was a shallow layer of snow pack that was left. The best part, though, was that no windrow was left along these streets at any crosswalk- the sidewalk plow had punched right through them, at every corner. This is absolutely not the case in Kitchener. If you walk down busy streets in Kitchener, in many places you will encounter large windrows that the road plow has left blocking sidewalks at intersections. They can, right now, be 18 inches or two feet high which means that, especially if you have wheels, they can be an impossible barrier.

In London, at least, if the plow has gone by (from my experience, you're right that sometimes it can take several days for this to happen), the windrows will have been moved. You can be assured that you will not, at any point on your walk, encounter a pile of snow separating the sidewalk from the crosswalk and presenting you with the choice of either turning around, or taking the risk of walking in the street.

[chutten]

the_councillor, welcome to the thread and the board. We are happy to have you engaging with us here on this fraught, seasonal topic about how best to ensure people can safely and reliably transport themselves around here.

I'm in the "spend the money" camp. I think that even an exorbitant expense is worth it to clear the sidewalks in the cities, and that by shifting the expense to residents' wallets, labour, schedules, and health we are creating an unfair externality.

I know spending more money just isn't a political reality, though. Budgets are fixed, revenue streams grow slowly (especially taking inflation into account)... but if ever there were a topic that could wedge a property tax line item onto our invoices, I think sidewalk clearing might be it.

Do you think so? Could we fund that?

[robdrimmie]

- Explore different "clear by" timing.  (24hrs from cessation can permit long stretches while uncleared.)

This is especially critical in my point of view. In theory, the GRT follows this same policy and as of this morning the stop I get on the busses most days hasn't been cleared in at least 20 days, and the stop I get off at wasn't cleared as of Friday afternoon and given the snowfall received over the weekend probably won't be.

This is a fundamentally bad policy and if that alone can be changed than the proactive enforcement tactic currently being tried would at least have some teeth. There's absolutely no reason to be afraid of bylaw enforcement and clearly the threat isn't enough to dissuade a large number of people.

[Bob_McBob]

This is especially critical in my point of view. In theory, the GRT follows this same policy and as of this morning the stop I get on the busses most days hasn't been cleared in at least 20 days, and the stop I get off at wasn't cleared as of Friday afternoon and given the snowfall received over the weekend probably won't be.

Isn't the snow removal contract only 24 hours for priority stops, and 48 hours for the rest? And it only starts 24 hours after a major snowfall too.