King-Victoria Transit Hub

[tomh009]

And the region doesn't want to be a commercial landlord anyway.

Why? It’s weird to own the most valuable real estate in the Region and not want to maximize returns.

Apparently it's not their core business.

[danbrotherston]

Why? It’s weird to own the most valuable real estate in the Region and not want to maximize returns.

Apparently it's not their core business.

Neither is transit...it's a diverse agency, I don't think they have a core business.

But that's no reason not to add new businesses.

That being said, I'm thinking now, the region *WAS* a commercial landlord, they owned Charles Terminal which did have tenents. So they in fact already ran a transit hub which had commercial tenents.

[ijmorlan]

Apparently it's not their core business.

Well, as a taxpayer, I want them to extract as much rent as they possibly can from that site, and I’ll go further and say that City zoning regulations shouldn’t be allowed to get in the way.

[tomh009]

Apparently it's not their core business.

Well, as a taxpayer, I want them to extract as much rent as they possibly can from that site, and I’ll go further and say that City zoning regulations shouldn’t be allowed to get in the way.

As a resident, you can make a presentation at the council meetings, and also vote for your representative on the council.

[panamaniac]

Apparently it's not their core business.

Neither is transit...it's a diverse agency, I don't think they have a core business.

But that's no reason not to add new businesses.

That being said, I'm thinking now, the region *WAS* a commercial landlord, they owned Charles Terminal which did have tenents. So they in fact already ran a transit hub which had commercial tenents.

There will almost certainly be a cafe (at least) in the new station.  Just not a supermarket, for now at least.

[panamaniac]

Apparently it's not their core business.

Well, as a taxpayer, I want them to extract as much rent as they possibly can from that site, and I’ll go further and say that City zoning regulations shouldn’t be allowed to get in the way.

Which zoning regulation is getting in who's way?

[KevinL]

Let's not forget that this building is a small part of the lot's footprint and the rest will be developed in a later stage. Any prudent developer would ensure to use retail units to take advantage of this prime location.

[danbrotherston]

Let's not forget that this building is a small part of the lot's footprint and the rest will be developed in a later stage. Any prudent developer would ensure to use retail units to take advantage of this prime location.

So why shouldn’t the region, as one of those developers also benefit from this prime location?

And on the small footprint issue, why is it costing 140 million dollars to develop a ground level bus loop, small two story building, public square, driveway, and underpass?

[ijmorlan]

Well, as a taxpayer, I want them to extract as much rent as they possibly can from that site, and I’ll go further and say that City zoning regulations shouldn’t be allowed to get in the way.

Which zoning regulation is getting in who's way?

I don’t know if this is an actual problem. I just mean that the Region shouldn’t have to worry about the current City of Kitchener zoning on the site. If the Region can make more money by building a 30 story tower but City zoning rules limit it to 24, the Region should be able to proceed with 30. It’s a Regional government public project on the most valuable real estate in the Region; the City has no business limiting it.

But it may well not be an issue.

[danbrotherston]

Which zoning regulation is getting in who's way?

I don’t know if this is an actual problem. I just mean that the Region shouldn’t have to worry about the current City of Kitchener zoning on the site. If the Region can make more money by building a 30 story tower but City zoning rules limit it to 24, the Region should be able to proceed with 30. It’s a Regional government public project on the most valuable real estate in the Region; the City has no business limiting it.

But it may well not be an issue.

[Coke6pk]

A rail station says a lot about a city, it's the first impression commuters get when arriving - it needs to be inviting. 

I too would love a grand building, with sheds like in Europe, and a huge commercial population, but I know we will not get that.

As for your comment above, do these really speak to their respective cities?

   

Coke

* I was going to say, one does... but I won't throw dirt at the Shwa! *

[plam]

* I was going to say, one does... but I won't throw dirt at the Shwa! *

Funny you say that. Oshawa actually rebuilt a bunch of VIA Rail infrastructure (but basically almost no commercial services in their station, sadly).

[ac3r]

One issue with retail in North American train stations is that quite often, train stations are not located that close to where people might live and work. European stations like Berlin Südkreuz and Berlin Friedrichstraße are able to have retail for a few reasons. They have lots of tracks - high speed rail, slower regional rail, subways, street cars (and bus stops, taxi stops) - meaning there are thousands upon thousands of people going through them each day. They're also quite often located in densely populated, old urban neighbourhoods. People live and work nearby, so shops make sense. Indeed they make a lot of sense in a place like Germany because most stores close at 8PM, and often the only place to get groceries after that or on a Sunday is to take a trip to the train station.

The use of transit in European countries is a lot higher as well. We simply lack a culture and infrastructure that results in people taking a train anywhere. Most people are commuting to Toronto and back with a car, because if you take the train you are going to need a good 2 hours each way, as our trains move at a snails pace. It's often a last resort for commuters to get around. Because of that, there are low passenger numbers and so there is no real need to build a grand train station. We were on the path to having a high speed rail link going from London to Toronto completed by 2025 (and continuing to expand to Windsor and Montreal/Quebec City), until the conservative government scrapped those plans. If we got that, then you'd certainly see bigger train stations being built or expanded in cities along the route. Our transit hub most certainly would have been bigger - perhaps with retail, offices and condos included or built nearby - like a few architects and developers were envisioning. Now, we're still not getting improved GO services despite all the talk, and they're just going to expand the 401 - yet again - and we will now get a fairly lackluster transit hub as a result, which will likely not expand for 1-2 decades until it makes more sense for people to use the train to get around.

[tomh009]

As much as I love high-speed rail, realistically it would bring far fewer passengers to the Kitchener station than all-day/two-way GO (with reasonable speed) would.

[danbrotherston]

One issue with retail in North American train stations is that quite often, train stations are not located that close to where people might live and work. European stations like Berlin Südkreuz and Berlin Friedrichstraße are able to have retail for a few reasons. They have lots of tracks - high speed rail, slower regional rail, subways, street cars (and bus stops, taxi stops) - meaning there are thousands upon thousands of people going through them each day. They're also quite often located in densely populated, old urban neighbourhoods. People live and work nearby, so shops make sense. Indeed they make a lot of sense in a place like Germany because most stores close at 8PM, and often the only place to get groceries after that or on a Sunday is to take a trip to the train station.

The use of transit in European countries is a lot higher as well. We simply lack a culture and infrastructure that results in people taking a train anywhere. Most people are commuting to Toronto and back with a car, because if you take the train you are going to need a good 2 hours each way, as our trains move at a snails pace. It's often a last resort for commuters to get around. Because of that, there are low passenger numbers and so there is no real need to build a grand train station. We were on the path to having a high speed rail link going from London to Toronto completed by 2025 (and continuing to expand to Windsor and Montreal/Quebec City), until the conservative government scrapped those plans. If we got that, then you'd certainly see bigger train stations being built or expanded in cities along the route. Our transit hub most certainly would have been bigger - perhaps with retail, offices and condos included or built nearby - like a few architects and developers were envisioning. Now, we're still not getting improved GO services despite all the talk, and they're just going to expand the 401 - yet again - and we will now get a fairly lackluster transit hub as a result, which will likely not expand for 1-2 decades until it makes more sense for people to use the train to get around.

I disagree that most of our train stations are located away from people. While some may be in less dense areas, (with the exception of those surrounded by giant parking lots) most are located close to population centres because many were built before cars.

More, building a HSR is no guarantee that stations will be built in cities, we are seeing this in California right now.

As for our transit hub, I don't think HSR has anything to do with it's success, AD2W GO is far more influential, while I fully support HSR, the plan was not to improve the tracks between here and Toronto beyond the AD2W GO plan (which the Conservatives have also scrapped by the way).

As for "low passenger numbers"...there are more people arriving in downtown Toronto by transit, than by car.  Yes, most people here do drive, but if you actually work downtown at a 9-5 job, trains are a better option, even today (well, not including COVID) and they are only going to get better, even with the conservative cuts.

And, THIS train station, could not be located in a more central location in the city. Even if there was no transit station on this plot of land, I would still expect it to be developed into a higher density development than is planned now.

I do not believe it is economic or market pressures causing this as you accurately describe, lackluster plan.