Midtown Lofts | ?m | 6 fl | Complete

[Spokes]

Love the new renders, but still baffled that there isn't ground floor retail. Stunning that this isn't a requirement.

[insider]

If there's a big interest in commercial use in this development, we should attend the public meetings, or the meeting when council approves the project... or has it been approved yet?

[REnerd]

Hard to argue that more commercial square footage is needed when so many store fronts downtown Kitchener are empty.

What downtown needs is people.  

Can't have it all at this point....

[BuildingScout]

Hard to argue that more commercial square footage is needed when so many store fronts downtown Kitchener are empty.

What downtown needs is people.  

Can't have it all at this point....

I agree, particularly this area in Midtown. Much as I like mixed usage we shouldn't jump the gun. Downtown needs tons more people, and much as One Victoria, Arrow Lofts, Kaufman Lofts and City Centre help we are still far short of the densities required for a thriving downtown.

[MidTowner]

I agree, particularly this area in Midtown. Much as I like mixed usage we shouldn't jump the gun. Downtown needs tons more people, and much as One Victoria, Arrow Lofts, Kaufman Lofts and City Centre help we are still far short of the densities required for a thriving downtown.

I don't understand why "particularly this area in Midtown". There is commercial space here which will be eliminated. This is King Street within very short walk of an Ion station- if this area couldn't use mixed use, where could?

[tomh009]

The amount of commercial space being eliminated is quite small, and likely new space would not appeal to the same tenants.

If there is demand for ground-floor retail space, the developers will build it. But I think right now it's a buyer's (renter's) market in that regard.

[BuildingScout]

The commercial space in The Red didn't quite take off... this shows that demand at the edge of a commercial area is weak. Increase density first, create the spaces later, otherwise we end up with boarded up commercial space, like so much of downtown kitchener.

[tomh009]

Right.  Need more potential customers, so either people living in the core, or people coming downtown to shop/eat.  The critical mass isn't there yet for the core as a shopping destination (increased density will help on that eventually), and we can't fill all the buildings with restaurants and cafes.

[creative]

How does commercial space in a condo work. Is it purchased by the business planning on setting up? Is it purchased and owned by a third party who in turn rents it out? Or is it owned by by the condo owners and then managed and rented out by the condo board or a third party property management firm?

[MidTowner]

The commercial space in The Red didn't quite take off... this shows that demand at the edge of a commercial area is weak. Increase density first, create the spaces later, otherwise we end up with boarded up commercial space, like so much of downtown kitchener.

That's a pretty good point about the Red space, although there's no way to know for sure if it was just the wrong business for the area. It may well have been, since there is thriving commercial right across the street.

Is "so much of downtown Kitchener" boarded up commercial space? That's not what I see when I walk around, but I guess it's perspective. I've never seen any numbers saying that vacancy rates are very high, especially among high-quality spaces.

Realistically, we'd be talking about a few small commercial units whose tenants could be supported primarily by the building's own residents. The Cortes project only a few blocks up is aiming for that, and doing this each and every time a lot on King is developed will ensure we have a great streetwall one day and an overall healthy street. If we don't insist on moving towards that now, then when? To get the full benefits of density, people need to live in proximity to jobs and amenities- if we encourage new developments to accommodate new residents here, but don't provide them with the services they need, the positive impacts are not nearly as high.

[modernizt]

The commercial space in The Red didn't quite take off... this shows that demand at the edge of a commercial area is weak. Increase density first, create the spaces later, otherwise we end up with boarded up commercial space, like so much of downtown kitchener.

You can't just "add commercial spaces later"; it's a huge hassle and the spaces are not conducive to be used for anything else in the interim (i.e. residential units).

If demand for street-facing retail isn't there in the present, that's fine; dentists' offices, law offices, design firms, and other offices can use the commercial space until the demand for retail units is there. That's the far better solution.

We're not going to have an epidemic of boarded-up retail spaces at the bottom of these new residential buildings; at worst, there will just be a lot of offices (dentists, etc.) taking up the space until more walkable neighbourhoods form around these buildings.

[Memph]

I don't think there's an especially high number of vacant storefronts in downtown Kitchener. Looking at street view I counted 12 vacant storefronts on King from Madison to Francis, a 1.3 km stretch.

I did something similar in downtown Oakville where my parents live. Along a 700m stretch of Lakeshore Rd and there's 22 vacant storefronts. In both downtowns most of the vacant storefronts aren't boarded up, they'll just have for lease signs and maybe some screen (paper? blinds) to prevent people from seeing in. Oakville despite having a shorter stretch does have a higher % of retail frontage though, while King st in Kitchener has more parking lots, civic buildings and office buildings without retail frontages. Also I haven't counted Market Square vacancies, just what's visible from King. The storefronts in Kitchener of course have shops catering to a more diverse clientele and often look a bit more run-down vs Downtown Oakville which is just upscale boutiques.

The 850m stretch of King from Spring to William in Uptown only had 2 vacancies, 3 if you include the post office.

By the way Kerr Street not far from downtown Oakville only had 4 vacancies despite being in a more working class/middle class neighbourhood so admittedly I don't know what's up with downtown Oakville.

[tomh009]

Realistically, we'd be talking about a few small commercial units whose tenants could be supported primarily by the building's own residents.

I can't think of many businesses that could (realistically) be supported primarily by the residents of a six-story condo building (assuming the ground floor is retail).  A business will need a larger customer base than that.

Dentist or doctor offices -- the challenge here would be parking.  At this time, most of a doctor's patients will be driving (any doctor moving to downtown will likely already have a practice in a less urban area), and a single doctor's office would probably need 10+ spaces.  And doctors generally prefer proximity to a pharmacy, and often to other medical offices.  There simply isn't a waiting list of doctors, dentist or lawyers clamouring to move to the downtown.

[Spokes]

The amount of commercial space being eliminated is quite small, and likely new space would not appeal to the same tenants.

If there is demand for ground-floor retail space, the developers will build it.  But I think right now it's a buyer's (renter's) market in that regard.

But along King Street, should we not be looking to maximize ground floor interaction?

[MidTowner]

I can't think of many businesses that could (realistically) be supported primarily by the residents of a six-story condo building (assuming the ground floor is retail).  A business will need a larger customer base than that.

You're right that I shouldn't have used "primarily." But this building is displacing a pizza shop and other (I can admit more marginal) commercial uses which have survived here. With the school and the neighbourhoods nearby, and the residents of over a hundred units right above, I think a small coffee shop or restaurant could find the business they need.

Dentist or doctor offices -- the challenge here would be parking.  At this time, most of a doctor's patients will be driving (any doctor moving to downtown will likely already have a practice in a less urban area), and a single doctor's office would probably need 10+ spaces.  And doctors generally prefer proximity to a pharmacy, and often to other medical offices.  There simply isn't a waiting list of doctors, dentist or lawyers clamouring to move to the downtown.

This location is barely five hundred meters from Grand River Hospital. If doctors' offices prefer proximity to pharmacies and other medical offices, there is a pharmacy across the street half a block down; another more full-service pharmacy less than ten minutes' walk on Pine Street; and one on Park adjacent to the hospital. There are also any number of specialists' offices located near the hospital, within walking distance of this site.