Circa 1877 (née Brick Brewery) | 20 fl | Complete

[panamaniac]

By reducing the size of the project (and the cash in the developer's pocket) has City Hall effectively encouraged/obliged the developer to "cheap out" on the finishes of this project?  Or to increase the prices of units?  Or both?

[darts]

That seems to be the general assumption among most condos in Waterloo Region thus far.  Rightly or wrongly.

A related assumption is that only singles/young couples who are just starting out would want to avoid paying for a parking spot they may or may not use. What about families who would like a two- or three-bedroom unit, whose wage-earners work somewhere accessible by transit, and whose children will attend school nearby?

how many of the condos recently built are 2/3 bedrooms?

[urbd]

What are the chances that there will be any two-floor units?  Love those... guessing not if they have changed it to mostly 1-bedroom units.

Need more 2-floor units with open-to-below's!

0% chance... in this day and age when all it matters is developers' maximum profits there is no way anyone will build these... maybe only charging an insane premium for them. They're not even done at penthouses anymore! Bauer, City Centre, 1 Vic and 100 Vic... none have double storey height penthouses.

[MidTowner]

how many of the condos recently built are 2/3 bedrooms?

Not many, I don't think...

[tomh009]

On the other hand, they substantially reduced parking!

0.846 spaces per unit, down from 1.15
0.743 spaces per bedroom, up from 0.733

Fixed it for you.

But I do believe the number per unit is still more relevant.  Based on anecdotal observations, a large percentage of the second bedrooms serve in "spare" or "visitor" role.  So even if the number of two-bedroom units is substantially reduced in the new plan, the number of people in the building will drop much less, meaning that the spaces-per-person ratio really does drop substantially.

[tomh009]

So the biggest thing the city of Waterloo did was to cut down on bedrooms, taking an average of 1.57 bedrooms per unit to now 1.14. That's very, very sad in my mind.

At least without evidence to the contrary, I don't think the city would have mandated the mix of one- vs two-bedroom units.  More likely They requested the one-storey reduction and dropped the parking requirement, and the developer reconfigured the building.

[creative]

Could it possibly be that there is no interest in these types of units? Are there people on this forum, with families or have friends with families, looking for these types of units with 2 and 3 bedrooms and no desire for parking? "Maybe only charging an insane premium for them" Prices are based on square footage. If you add extra bedrooms or lofts you add extra square footage which adds to the cost. The market will dictate what people want to buy. A large percentage of new condo buyers are investors looking to rent their units. The bachelor and 1 bedrooms always sell first as the rental numbers work best with these units. I'm all for intensification in the core but I personally have no desire to move there.

[Viewfromthe42]

Honestly though, when King Street in UpTown right next to an LRT stop is considered an "established neighbourhood", we might as well just say that UpTown is not open for business, as the entirety of it is an "established neighbourhood" that we should be ashamed to think of changing.

It's funny, too, that in changing from ~100 two bedrooms units to just a handful, the neighbourhood will see the mix of new tenants (possibly) go from an original 100 single bedrooms (more likely to be shorter term rentals to students, young professionals) and 200 multi-bedrooms (more likely to be longer term rentals/owner-occupied to/by couples, families, retirees), and now that 100/200 mix is more like 200/20, which I would think anyone at the meeting, when asked about those two options, would pick the original one.

[tomh009]

Quite possible. Even when it's not investors, condo owners tend to be either young singles/couples or older empty-nesters. In both cases one-bedroom units and one-bedroom-plus-den ones are a good fit, and will sell more quickly.

If there is more demand for two-bedroom units than the developer is expecting, they'll sell out fast, and another developer will surely be paying attention to this fact. The mix will balance itself over time.

[darts]

Quite possible.  Even when it's not investors, condo owners tend to be either young singles/couples or older empty-nesters.  In both cases one-bedroom units and one-bedroom-plus-den ones are a good fit, and will sell more quickly.

If there is more demand for two-bedroom units than the developer is expecting, they'll sell out fast, and another developer will surely be paying attention to this fact.  The mix will balance itself over time.

I thought I read that condos with dens were reconfigured and rented out to students as an extra bedroom.


If a developer knows that they can get so many $ for 8 units on a single floor, wouldn't they charge about double per unit for 4 units on the same floor? In reality I know space might be a little less than double and the developer saves by not having to make a second kitchen but I don't think they would necessarily pass the savings on.

[tomh009]

It's funny, too, that in changing from ~100 two bedrooms units to just a handful, the neighbourhood will see the mix of new tenants (possibly) go from an original 100 single bedrooms (more likely to be shorter term rentals to students, young professionals) and 200 multi-bedrooms (more likely to be longer term rentals/owner-occupied to/by couples, families, retirees), and now that 100/200 mix is more like 200/20, which I would think anyone at the meeting, when asked about those two options, would pick the original one.

The original was 194 units with 304 bedrooms, so likely 110 units with two bedrooms and 84 with one (1.31:1 ratio).  The new one has 188 units with 214 bedrooms, so likely 26 units with two bedrooms and 162 with one (0.16:1 ratio).

Given that the building size isn't much different (one floor removed, quite possibly with six penthouses and 12+ bedrooms), there is a substantial decrease in bedrooms with much less of a drop in residential floor space.  This means either units with dens (which can work as guest bedrooms, too) or more large one-bedroom units (maybe this is what people want).

I do expect that the adjustments were driven by what people were interested in.  From their web site:
   

(Edited to correct my math problems ...)

[tomh009]

I thought I read that condos with dens were reconfigured and rented out to students as an extra bedroom.

If a developer knows that they can get so many $ for 8 units on a single floor, wouldn't they charge about double per unit for 4 units on the same floor? In reality I know space might be a little less than double and the developer saves by not having to make a second kitchen but I don't think they would necessarily pass the savings on.

Dens can be rented as student bedrooms, sure.  If the location is right for students, and the price compensates for the tiny bedroom.  181 King S is a bit far to be prime student rental space, though.

What a developer will charge will really be determined by the market: they will charge as much as people are willing to pay.  Penthouse units are generally the most profitable but they are also the most difficult to sell (1 Victoria and Arrow Lofts still have penthouse units left, for example) so some developers will forgo them altogether.  So you look for balance: the most profitable unit types that will also sell in a reasonable amount of time.

[urbd]

"Maybe only charging an insane premium for them" Prices are based on square footage. 

I was talking about double height/double storey units. Not 2-3 bedroom units.

[Viewfromthe42]

The "what are you interested in" is likely also more driven by investors, who will indeed tend to go for the cheaper to buy and easier to rent single bedroom options.

Sorry about my original ratio, was meant more as the original would have ~200 people who were half of a couple, and 100 people who were renting single bedrooms. Now it's more like ~50 people as part of a couple and ~140 people renting single bedrooms, so from 2:1 to 1:3, when thinking of your neighbours.

[tomh009]

Whether it's investors renting out one-bedroom units or owner-occupiers buying one-bedroom units, it does appear that there is more demand for those. At least for now, in five years the picture may have changed.