Road design, safety and Vision Zero

[danbrotherston]

Because this way you need only a half dozen signs for a neighbourhood rather than hundreds because the HTA requires that any road with a non-standard speed limit (not 50km/h) be signed at every intersection, so that drivers turning onto the road see the sign. Not only would this be prohibitively expensive it would clutter a neighbourhood with a silly amount of signage.

To make sure I understand correctly, the idea is that once you see a "Maximum X Area Begins" sign, all possible roads you turn on to will have that same speed limit and all possible exits from the area will be signed with "Maximum X Area End"? And specifically, the blue "Area" sign is what makes this different from other speed limit signs?



I don't have a physical copy of the MTO Handbook, but the online copy doesn't make any mention of this (though it also doesn't seem to even have speed limit signs in the Signs section...). Drivers ed did not cover this. The drivers license tests don't (explicitly) cover this. Now, through second hand knowledge I know residential neighbourhoods are 40, and even if I didn't in most neighbourhoods 40 feels too fast, so I don't think I've had any issue here. But I don't expect the vast majority of the population to understand that these signs are different from other speed limit regulatory signs and apply to more than just the street it's posted on.

See this diagram below. These are the signs posted along Jubilee from Queen St to Victoria St. Street view is a bit old so these might be outdated, but I believe they are still correct, though I can't remember of the first and last 40km/h signs have the "Area" sign as well now.

1. Given that neither the 30 nor the 40 signs have the blue "Area" sign, are the speed limits on Theresa and Heins 50km/h?
   
2. If the first and last 40 signs have been updated to be "Area"s, but the 30 signs remain as they are, does that make Theresa and Heins 40km/h? In other words, you have to remember a nested set of speed limits (I'm on a 30 section of road, inside of a 40 area, inside of a 50 city)?
   
3. If the "Area" sign is what truly matters, then why is the final sign a "Maximum 40 Ends" instead of the incoming speed limit, since this isn't a neighbourhood speed area? Why does the initial 40km/h not end? Why does the 30km/h not end?
   

We also get silly situations like this, where the "Area" ends and them resumes on either side of an intersection



So I get the point about signage clutter (which I hate too), but I think North America's reliance on signs to spell out the rules combined with a growing number of exceptions to the baseline rules creates even more clutter, and frankly, distractions in places where we often need to be paying attention. It seems like the ideals of simplicity, readability, and intuitability of the original sign designers has been lost. But I guess nothing can be done about that if we want a compromise between lower only certain street limits but not entirely rebuilding the streets.

So I think you're thinking about it conceptually wrong. When you enter a "40km/h area"...it is simply a change to the default speed limit, it's now 40 not 50. All other rules apply the same. Speed limit signs apply when the limit is different from the default (I suppose theoretically you could put a 50km/h road in a 40 zone...but that just seems like spite). 

The Queen St. section is rather egregious...the whole street should just be simplified to be 30km/h (or like...just fucking close the section in the park already).

As for "ends" the only time those signs are used AFAIK is when the speed limit is returning to the default limit. I.e., you'd never put a 50km/h sign, you'd just say the 40km/h restriction ends.

Honestly...the way speed limits are conceptualised is kind of outdated. I suspect it originates from a time when speed limits were used only in certain areas to limit speed, instead of applying broadly to every road. The "end" the limit was literally just the end of any speed limit. But those days are long past...well...at least in the US and Canada...*looks over at Germany*...



As for an overreliance on signage, you're absolutely right. In the Netherlands you'd have a pretty good chance of guessing the speed limit without even seeing a sign. 

I can't seem to post pictures anymore...but this is the speed limit sign on entrance to my neighbourhood: https://www.google.com/maps/@52.1835707,...?entry=ttu 

It also uses "zone" terminology (which translates to ... zone) but the sign is pretty minimal. Nobody is going to be confused about the speed limit in our neighbourhood, the design of the roads makes it completely obvious how fast you should travel (or frankly, are physically capable of travelling).

There are only a few places where the speed limit might not be clear...like residential streets that are old and not to the modern design standards, but where limits have been lowered, ironically, mostly in older but expensive areas that have wide roads with few cars.

Edit: Apparently the attachment did work...weird.