GO Transit

[panamaniac]

GO for Toronto-Kitchener-London and (eventually) VIA HFR on the main line?

[bgb_ca]

GO for Toronto-Kitchener-London and (eventually) VIA HFR on the main line?

would it be plausible to extend the Milton line to there?

[taylortbb]

GO for Toronto-Kitchener-London and (eventually) VIA HFR on the main line?

would it be plausible to extend the Milton line to there?

Theoretically possible, but not plausible. CP is very difficult to work with, and overall I think would prefer to not have any passenger trains on their tracks. VIA also seems to avoid CP tracks wherever possible, so it's not just a GO issue.

https://rac.jmaponline.net/canadianrailatlas/ is great for seeing the different lines and their ownership. Serving London with GO trains could be via the Kitchener, Milton, or Lakeshore West lines.

The problem with Lakeshore West is that it's planned to go to Hamilton, which precludes running via Brantford and Woodstock to London.

Even if you could extend the Milton line, via Cambridge and Woodstock to London, you need a lot more kilometres of extension (Milton is much farther from London than KW) without a ton of population to justify it (Cambridge and Woodstock aren't big cities).

The Kitchener line can serve London via Stratford and St Mary's, without it being as long of an extension. It also has the upside of being the least busy of the three, west of its current end, because most freight takes either CP or the CN south mainlines. That also likely makes it cheaper for GO to purchase the track.

The downside of course is that via Kitchener is long, the CP route is probably the fastest way to downtown Toronto from London. But the Kitchener line would be useful for people heading from London to KW, or to Pearson.

[danbrotherston]

would it be plausible to extend the Milton line to there?

Theoretically possible, but not plausible. CP is very difficult to work with, and overall I think would prefer to not have any passenger trains on their tracks. VIA also seems to avoid CP tracks wherever possible, so it's not just a GO issue.

https://rac.jmaponline.net/canadianrailatlas/ is great for seeing the different lines and their ownership. Serving London with GO trains could be via the Kitchener, Milton, or Lakeshore West lines.

The problem with Lakeshore West is that it's planned to go to Hamilton, which precludes running via Brantford and Woodstock to London.

Even if you could extend the Milton line, via Cambridge and Woodstock to London, you need a lot more kilometres of extension (Milton is much farther from London than KW) without a ton of population to justify it (Cambridge and Woodstock aren't big cities).

The Kitchener line can serve London via Stratford and St Mary's, without it being as long of an extension. It also has the upside of being the least busy of the three, west of its current end, because most freight takes either CP or the CN south mainlines. That also likely makes it cheaper for GO to purchase the track.

The downside of course is that via Kitchener is long, the CP route is probably the fastest way to downtown Toronto from London. But the Kitchener line would be useful for people heading from London to KW, or to Pearson.

It wouldn't be at all unusual to have the line branch, with half (or a quarter, or a handful) of trains going west to London instead of South to Hamilton/Niagara.

The benefits of going Mainline to London instead of through KW is that you save an unknown number of millions improving the tracks (the KW tracks are garbage), you also service much more population that you aren't servicing already (I realize that you service Stratford and St. Marys using the KW line, but Woodstock and Brantford are much bigger than Stratford and St. Marys.

Ultimately, I don't know what the plan is, but I don't think it's a logical direction at the moment, we need a real, wholistic rethink of our transportation network. Whether GO should become more than just a regional service, or whether Via should be that service, or there should be a merger or some form of co-operation. We need a larger rethink than just "hey, we can service London with trains".

[danbrotherston]

FWIW I just noticed the GO train in motion travelling west from King just a few minutes ago and I'm reminded of the incredible frustration that we have no reasonable weekend service when there are basically zero obstacles to implementing it.

[ac3r]

Lol we'll all be dead before we ever saw GO trains going to London. We can't even get them to Waterloo Region on a regular basis and we've been trying for a decade. At the rate they're going at just attempting to get all day GO trains here...I'll be in my mid 40s if I'm lucky. At this point, the only way we're going to see improved passenger rail service in this country is through rail nationalization, but that will never happen within our lifetimes unless both CN and CP somehow magically went bankrupt.

[Bytor]

Ultimately, I don't know what the plan is, but I don't think it's a logical direction at the moment, we need a real, wholistic rethink of our transportation network. Whether GO should become more than just a regional service, or whether Via should be that service, or there should be a merger or some form of co-operation. We need a larger rethink than just "hey, we can service London with trains".

Ideally you want regional rail (and commuter rail, as a subset of that), to work more like municipal public transit where where you can just pay your fare and hop on, rather than paying ahead for assigned, reserved seating like VIA does. It's a bit of a diffetrnt niche than VIA's inter-city model.

[plam]

Ultimately, I don't know what the plan is, but I don't think it's a logical direction at the moment, we need a real, wholistic rethink of our transportation network. Whether GO should become more than just a regional service, or whether Via should be that service, or there should be a merger or some form of co-operation. We need a larger rethink than just "hey, we can service London with trains".

Ideally you want regional rail (and commuter rail, as a subset of that), to work more like municipal public transit where where you can just pay your fare and hop on, rather than paying ahead for assigned, reserved seating like VIA does. It's a bit of a diffetrnt niche than VIA's inter-city model.

Also dynamic pricing (ie prices get higher closer to travel time) is annoying and definitely shouldn't exist for regional rail even if one can argue for it in the context of inter-city rail.

[ac3r]

There's an interesting thread in /r/Ontario on Reddit from a university student studying graphic design. It is a hypothetical map of a very complex GO train network around Southern Ontario. Pure fantasy, but damn this would be great if it was real: https://www.reddit.com/r/ontario/comment...ticing_my/

[danbrotherston]

That would be a very interesting network if it was made real.

But I really had to laugh...the Milton Line is STILL not extended to Cambridge. Even in some people's wildest fantasies that remains a leap too far.

[tomh009]

That would be a very interesting network if it was made real.

But I really had to laugh...the Milton Line is STILL not extended to Cambridge. Even in some people's wildest fantasies that remains a leap too far.

Well, you know, gotta get GO to Goderich first!

Yeah, I know, it's just a student project ...

[ac3r]

It's not entirely unfeasible to run trains to smaller towns like Goderich. The discussion on Reddit makes a point to mention that it's common in Europe and it ensures people living in small, rural communities have transportation access. Would Metrolinx do it? Definitely not, but it would be great to see broader expansion one day. There are only 68 stations on the entire network which is a pitiful amount of service for a region of the country containing nearly 13 million people.

[Bytor]

That would be a very interesting network if it was made real.

But I really had to laugh...the Milton Line is STILL not extended to Cambridge. Even in some people's wildest fantasies that remains a leap too far.

Well, you know, gotta get GO to Goderich first!

Yeah, I know, it's just a student project ...

I am on the Discord server where this person posted revisions of this map as they were making it, and GO to Goderich is probably my fault, LOL. That's a line that I would love. ;-)

[KevinT]

But I really had to laugh...the Milton Line is STILL not extended to Cambridge. Even in some people's wildest fantasies that remains a leap too far.

Lol, I totally missed that!

[nms]

In a perfect world, there would be various "Regions" with the ultimate goal that not every train terminates in Toronto. This dream ignores any existing geographic conditions or the existence (or lack thereof) of suitable rights-of-way. Years ago I attended a Transport 2000 seminar where the host asked, "Where would you like to go by train, and not limiting yourself to places that currently have a railway running through it?"

We could call this plan "GO Beyond" with the idea to connect every town in Ontario with 5000 people, plus a few places inbetween. I know, a person can dream...

GO Central: A radius roughly Hamilton, Georgetown, Oshawa, centered at Union Station
GO West: A wedge from Georgetown to Stratford
GO Huron: Stratford to London to the shores of Lake Huron
GO Georgian: Owen Sound, Collingwood...
GO Simcoe: Everything around Lake Simcoe
GO North: Everything North of Lake Simcoe up to North Bay?
GO Kawartha: Peterborough...
GO East: Oshawa to Kingston