Road design, safety and Vision Zero

[bravado]

Regional council is looking to expand their speed camera program. While this is unambiguously a good thing for safety and also for equity (cameras can’t target BIPOC, fewer potentially dangerous police interactions) the page on Reddit is absolutely throwing a tantrum (even posters who are usually progressive). Besides cars rotting your brain why do people get this so wrong?

https://www.reddit.com/r/waterloo/commen...ansion_of/

[jwilliamson]

We have lots of discussions on this site about improving stroads by making them more street-like, but the other aspect of the stroad framework is identifying which routes should be roads, and making them work better as roads and removing the street characteristics. If you could choose which routes would be treated as roads, with minimal development facing them and designed to speed up movement, which would you choose?

The obvious choices to me would be (maybe Northfield), Columbia and Victoria for East-West routes and Fischer-Hallman and Weber for North-South routes.

[jwilliamson]

I was sitting on Larch St the other day and noticed a bunch of the pavers were heaving and cracking. Seems like a pretty serious flaw if they need to be replaced after only a year.

[Bob_McBob]

A pedestrian has been struck by a vehicle at the Erb and Ira Needles roundabout for the third time since December.

https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/pedestrian-...-1.6475180

[Bob_McBob]

And just a few days later and someone posted a video of yet another pedestrian nearly being struck at this roundabout. Amazingly quite a few people think the pedestrian is at fault here for "not looking". Apparently if you don't wear a high vis vest, wave a flag, extend your arm and point, and timidly cross while doing a constant eye sweep you are responsible if you get hit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/kitchener/comme...ssed_this/

[ac3r]

Is that even a real person? Because they're walking like an NPC in Grand Theft Auto.

[bravado]

I think that's just what happens to your brain when walking next to a soulless stroad

[dtkvictim]

Does anyone know why the 40km/h neighbourhood speed limits are posted as "Maximum 40 Area Begins" and "... Area Ends"? In particular, why the "Ends" sign instead of just posting what speed limit is resuming? I don't understand the reasoning for treating these sections of road differently from anywhere else that falls outside of the standard 50/80km/h roads. When a country road goes through a small town, the lowered speed limit is posted, and then an 80km/h sign is posted after exiting the city, not a "Maximum 50 Area Ends". Likewise in the city when a speed limit is over 50km/h, it's not some special "Area".

[KevinL]

The signs at the city limits indicate that, if no other notice is given, a road's speed limit is 50. So these areas are reduced to 40; when you leave them, the default 50 returns.

[dtkvictim]

The signs at the city limits indicate that, if no other notice is given, a road's speed limit is 50. So these areas are reduced to 40; when you leave them, the default 50 returns.

I understand that, but why introduce a new system for 40 zones? By that logic, we should never see a "Maximum 50" sign, only the start and end of exceptions. Streets with a 60km/h limit aren't "60 Areas" demarcated by "Maximum 60 Area Begins" and "Maximum 60 Area Ends" signs, but simply by posting what the speed limit is, including when it reverts back to the standard 50km/h (see photo).

In other words, if we are posting a sign at the end of a 40 zone, why are we posting what the speed limit isn't instead of what it is?

[danbrotherston]

The signs at the city limits indicate that, if no other notice is given, a road's speed limit is 50. So these areas are reduced to 40; when you leave them, the default 50 returns.

I understand that, but why introduce a new system for 40 zones? By that logic, we should never see a "Maximum 50" sign, only the start and end of exceptions. Streets with a 60km/h limit aren't "60 Areas" demarcated by "Maximum 60 Area Begins" and "Maximum 60 Area Ends" signs, but simply by posting what the speed limit is, including when it reverts back to the standard 50km/h (see photo).

In other words, if we are posting a sign at the end of a 40 zone, why are we posting what the speed limit isn't instead of what it is?

Because this way you need only a half dozen signs for a neighbourhood rather than hundreds because the HTA requires that any road with a non-standard speed limit (not 50km/h) be signed at every intersection, so that drivers turning onto the road see the sign. Not only would this be prohibitively expensive it would clutter a neighbourhood with a silly amount of signage.

[dtkvictim]

Because this way you need only a half dozen signs for a neighbourhood rather than hundreds because the HTA requires that any road with a non-standard speed limit (not 50km/h) be signed at every intersection, so that drivers turning onto the road see the sign. Not only would this be prohibitively expensive it would clutter a neighbourhood with a silly amount of signage.

To make sure I understand correctly, the idea is that once you see a "Maximum X Area Begins" sign, all possible roads you turn on to will have that same speed limit and all possible exits from the area will be signed with "Maximum X Area End"? And specifically, the blue "Area" sign is what makes this different from other speed limit signs?



I don't have a physical copy of the MTO Handbook, but the online copy doesn't make any mention of this (though it also doesn't seem to even have speed limit signs in the Signs section...). Drivers ed did not cover this. The drivers license tests don't (explicitly) cover this. Now, through second hand knowledge I know residential neighbourhoods are 40, and even if I didn't in most neighbourhoods 40 feels too fast, so I don't think I've had any issue here. But I don't expect the vast majority of the population to understand that these signs are different from other speed limit regulatory signs and apply to more than just the street it's posted on.

See this diagram below. These are the signs posted along Jubilee from Queen St to Victoria St. Street view is a bit old so these might be outdated, but I believe they are still correct, though I can't remember of the first and last 40km/h signs have the "Area" sign as well now.

1. Given that neither the 30 nor the 40 signs have the blue "Area" sign, are the speed limits on Theresa and Heins 50km/h?
   
2. If the first and last 40 signs have been updated to be "Area"s, but the 30 signs remain as they are, does that make Theresa and Heins 40km/h? In other words, you have to remember a nested set of speed limits (I'm on a 30 section of road, inside of a 40 area, inside of a 50 city)?
   
3. If the "Area" sign is what truly matters, then why is the final sign a "Maximum 40 Ends" instead of the incoming speed limit, since this isn't a neighbourhood speed area? Why does the initial 40km/h not end? Why does the 30km/h not end?
   

We also get silly situations like this, where the "Area" ends and them resumes on either side of an intersection



So I get the point about signage clutter (which I hate too), but I think North America's reliance on signs to spell out the rules combined with a growing number of exceptions to the baseline rules creates even more clutter, and frankly, distractions in places where we often need to be paying attention. It seems like the ideals of simplicity, readability, and intuitability of the original sign designers has been lost. But I guess nothing can be done about that if we want a compromise between lower only certain street limits but not entirely rebuilding the streets.

[danbrotherston]

Because this way you need only a half dozen signs for a neighbourhood rather than hundreds because the HTA requires that any road with a non-standard speed limit (not 50km/h) be signed at every intersection, so that drivers turning onto the road see the sign. Not only would this be prohibitively expensive it would clutter a neighbourhood with a silly amount of signage.

To make sure I understand correctly, the idea is that once you see a "Maximum X Area Begins" sign, all possible roads you turn on to will have that same speed limit and all possible exits from the area will be signed with "Maximum X Area End"? And specifically, the blue "Area" sign is what makes this different from other speed limit signs?



I don't have a physical copy of the MTO Handbook, but the online copy doesn't make any mention of this (though it also doesn't seem to even have speed limit signs in the Signs section...). Drivers ed did not cover this. The drivers license tests don't (explicitly) cover this. Now, through second hand knowledge I know residential neighbourhoods are 40, and even if I didn't in most neighbourhoods 40 feels too fast, so I don't think I've had any issue here. But I don't expect the vast majority of the population to understand that these signs are different from other speed limit regulatory signs and apply to more than just the street it's posted on.

See this diagram below. These are the signs posted along Jubilee from Queen St to Victoria St. Street view is a bit old so these might be outdated, but I believe they are still correct, though I can't remember of the first and last 40km/h signs have the "Area" sign as well now.

1. Given that neither the 30 nor the 40 signs have the blue "Area" sign, are the speed limits on Theresa and Heins 50km/h?
   
2. If the first and last 40 signs have been updated to be "Area"s, but the 30 signs remain as they are, does that make Theresa and Heins 40km/h? In other words, you have to remember a nested set of speed limits (I'm on a 30 section of road, inside of a 40 area, inside of a 50 city)?
   
3. If the "Area" sign is what truly matters, then why is the final sign a "Maximum 40 Ends" instead of the incoming speed limit, since this isn't a neighbourhood speed area? Why does the initial 40km/h not end? Why does the 30km/h not end?
   

We also get silly situations like this, where the "Area" ends and them resumes on either side of an intersection



So I get the point about signage clutter (which I hate too), but I think North America's reliance on signs to spell out the rules combined with a growing number of exceptions to the baseline rules creates even more clutter, and frankly, distractions in places where we often need to be paying attention. It seems like the ideals of simplicity, readability, and intuitability of the original sign designers has been lost. But I guess nothing can be done about that if we want a compromise between lower only certain street limits but not entirely rebuilding the streets.

So I think you're thinking about it conceptually wrong. When you enter a "40km/h area"...it is simply a change to the default speed limit, it's now 40 not 50. All other rules apply the same. Speed limit signs apply when the limit is different from the default (I suppose theoretically you could put a 50km/h road in a 40 zone...but that just seems like spite). 

The Queen St. section is rather egregious...the whole street should just be simplified to be 30km/h (or like...just fucking close the section in the park already).

As for "ends" the only time those signs are used AFAIK is when the speed limit is returning to the default limit. I.e., you'd never put a 50km/h sign, you'd just say the 40km/h restriction ends.

Honestly...the way speed limits are conceptualised is kind of outdated. I suspect it originates from a time when speed limits were used only in certain areas to limit speed, instead of applying broadly to every road. The "end" the limit was literally just the end of any speed limit. But those days are long past...well...at least in the US and Canada...*looks over at Germany*...



As for an overreliance on signage, you're absolutely right. In the Netherlands you'd have a pretty good chance of guessing the speed limit without even seeing a sign. 

I can't seem to post pictures anymore...but this is the speed limit sign on entrance to my neighbourhood: https://www.google.com/maps/@52.1835707,...?entry=ttu 

It also uses "zone" terminology (which translates to ... zone) but the sign is pretty minimal. Nobody is going to be confused about the speed limit in our neighbourhood, the design of the roads makes it completely obvious how fast you should travel (or frankly, are physically capable of travelling).

There are only a few places where the speed limit might not be clear...like residential streets that are old and not to the modern design standards, but where limits have been lowered, ironically, mostly in older but expensive areas that have wide roads with few cars.

Edit: Apparently the attachment did work...weird.

[dtkvictim]

Sorry, I forgot to get around to responding to this.

So I think you're thinking about it conceptually wrong. When you enter a "40km/h area"...it is simply a change to the default speed limit, it's now 40 not 50. All other rules apply the same. Speed limit signs apply when the limit is different from the default (I suppose theoretically you could put a 50km/h road in a 40 zone...but that just seems like spite). 

I might have described my understanding poorly, but that is how I was thinking about it. And I get the reasoning behind it and only having to sign the exits to the area vs signing every single street. I'm fine with that.

The Queen St. section is rather egregious...the whole street should just be simplified to be 30km/h (or like...just fucking close the section in the park already).

Agreed.

As for "ends" the only time those signs are used AFAIK is when the speed limit is returning to the default limit. I.e., you'd never put a 50km/h sign, you'd just say the 40km/h restriction ends.

This is where what you're saying conceptually falls apart for me. My example above has no AREA signs, and thus isn't a local change to the default speed limit, it's just a regular road that differs from the speed limit. And so using an "END" sign doesn't do anything to save on the number of signs, but does add to confusion.

In fact, I had a skim through the Ontario Traffic Manual and now I think that the ENDs sign isn't even supposed to be used with speed limit signs unless accompanied for the AREA sign. There are examples of the END tab sign being used in conjunction with all other kinds of regulations (e.g. construction zones), but with the exception of AREAs, there is no example or regulation showing an ENDs sign with a speed limit sign. Though it is possible I've simply missed something.

So in my example there is no reason to have a 40km/h ENDs sign (and it's possibly against the traffic manual), and I think the speed limits on Heins and Theresa are 50km/h unless they are themselves signed.

As for an overreliance on signage, you're absolutely right. In the Netherlands you'd have a pretty good chance of guessing the speed limit without even seeing a sign. 

I can't seem to post pictures anymore...but this is the speed limit sign on entrance to my neighbourhood: https://www.google.com/maps/@52.1835707,...?entry=ttu 

It also uses "zone" terminology (which translates to ... zone) but the sign is pretty minimal. Nobody is going to be confused about the speed limit in our neighbourhood, the design of the roads makes it completely obvious how fast you should travel (or frankly, are physically capable of travelling).

You have to stop posting NL streetview and making the rest of us sad. It's hard to believe that neighbourhood is a relatively new build.

I think any comment on the signs used in the Netherlands is almost moot, because they are hardly needed. But to comment anyways, I think the signs there are better. The beginning of the zone, from what I can tell, is distinct from regular speed limit signs in that it's rectangular while still being recognizable at the glance and thus can be understand quicker. And more importantly, the sign exiting the zone is visually distinct from from the entrance having no color and strike through, and doesn't even need to be read.

I contrast that zone exit sign with ours, where I recently passed by the end of a 40 area but my brain only intuitively registered "I just saw a 40km/h sign, so the speed limit is 40". I had to actually think to realize that I knew I was already in a 40 area so that must have been the sign ending the area. The speed limit on our AREA ENDs signs don't actually matter, yet it's what catches your brain over the AREA and ENDS signs, which do actually matter.

Combine this with the unreadable reduced speed limit during school hour signs (especially with speed cameras getting people to following them) and I see a lot of people who I think don't actually know what the speed limit is (not just choosing the drive below the limit). Combine them with the people who do know and take the liberty of an extra 10-15 over and you sometimes get dangerous speed differences. Though in general I guess it's not the worst for people to not know a 40 area has ended, or think the 40 school zones are in effect at all hours, since it does result in some lower speeds?

[danbrotherston]

Sorry, I forgot to get around to responding to this.

So I think you're thinking about it conceptually wrong. When you enter a "40km/h area"...it is simply a change to the default speed limit, it's now 40 not 50. All other rules apply the same. Speed limit signs apply when the limit is different from the default (I suppose theoretically you could put a 50km/h road in a 40 zone...but that just seems like spite). 

I might have described my understanding poorly, but that is how I was thinking about it. And I get the reasoning behind it and only having to sign the exits to the area vs signing every single street. I'm fine with that.

The Queen St. section is rather egregious...the whole street should just be simplified to be 30km/h (or like...just fucking close the section in the park already).

Agreed.

As for "ends" the only time those signs are used AFAIK is when the speed limit is returning to the default limit. I.e., you'd never put a 50km/h sign, you'd just say the 40km/h restriction ends.

This is where what you're saying conceptually falls apart for me. My example above has no AREA signs, and thus isn't a local change to the default speed limit, it's just a regular road that differs from the speed limit. And so using an "END" sign doesn't do anything to save on the number of signs, but does add to confusion.

In fact, I had a skim through the Ontario Traffic Manual and now I think that the ENDs sign isn't even supposed to be used with speed limit signs unless accompanied for the AREA sign. There are examples of the END tab sign being used in conjunction with all other kinds of regulations (e.g. construction zones), but with the exception of AREAs, there is no example or regulation showing an ENDs sign with a speed limit sign. Though it is possible I've simply missed something.

So in my example there is no reason to have a 40km/h ENDs sign (and it's possibly against the traffic manual), and I think the speed limits on Heins and Theresa are 50km/h unless they are themselves signed.

As for an overreliance on signage, you're absolutely right. In the Netherlands you'd have a pretty good chance of guessing the speed limit without even seeing a sign. 

I can't seem to post pictures anymore...but this is the speed limit sign on entrance to my neighbourhood: https://www.google.com/maps/@52.1835707,...?entry=ttu 

It also uses "zone" terminology (which translates to ... zone) but the sign is pretty minimal. Nobody is going to be confused about the speed limit in our neighbourhood, the design of the roads makes it completely obvious how fast you should travel (or frankly, are physically capable of travelling).

You have to stop posting NL streetview and making the rest of us sad. It's hard to believe that neighbourhood is a relatively new build.

I think any comment on the signs used in the Netherlands is almost moot, because they are hardly needed. But to comment anyways, I think the signs there are better. The beginning of the zone, from what I can tell, is distinct from regular speed limit signs in that it's rectangular while still being recognizable at the glance and thus can be understand quicker. And more importantly, the sign exiting the zone is visually distinct from from the entrance having no color and strike through, and doesn't even need to be read.

I contrast that zone exit sign with ours, where I recently passed by the end of a 40 area but my brain only intuitively registered "I just saw a 40km/h sign, so the speed limit is 40". I had to actually think to realize that I knew I was already in a 40 area so that must have been the sign ending the area. The speed limit on our AREA ENDs signs don't actually matter, yet it's what catches your brain over the AREA and ENDS signs, which do actually matter.

Combine this with the unreadable reduced speed limit during school hour signs (especially with speed cameras getting people to following them) and I see a lot of people who I think don't actually know what the speed limit is (not just choosing the drive below the limit). Combine them with the people who do know and take the liberty of an extra 10-15 over and you sometimes get dangerous speed differences. Though in general I guess it's not the worst for people to not know a 40 area has ended, or think the 40 school zones are in effect at all hours, since it does result in some lower speeds?

Yeah, I do think there is a disconnect between how the speed limits are presented and how we (or I at least) are taught how they work. The idea of a "default" limit was kinda vaguely gestured at but it was never really made a core concept. The "speed limit ends" signs are just kinda pointless, they should just have the limit which is actually in force, that would be a far better way to communicate to road users.

All I'm suggesting is that there is a historical reason for using them...that back when speed limits weren't a universal thing, they made sense.

(And I'd be curious...I suspect those signs would be used in Germany in places where the speed limit does in fact end...but that's Germany, where the drivers are precise and rigid and also apparently entirely insane.)

I will say the "end" signs here were confusing for me when I first arrived here, I didn't immediately understand what it meant when there was a grey sign with a slash through it...but they are at least extremely distinct from the beginning signs and also symbolic and not relying on an understanding of a particular language (although the Dutch absolutely do not shy away from using Dutch on road signs).

But I think much more important than the specific signs is how the entire roadway design cues the user without even using signage.

That being said, I showed a picture from our neighbourhood which is...particularly good, albeit still very car accessible. It is newer and Dutch designs have been getting better (just as NA has....albeit, slowly and far behind). If you look at neighbourhoods here that were built in the 60s you'll find stuff that is much much more familiar to Canada. And even stuff built in the 80, 90, 00s will often be still fairly car oriented. The suburb called Leusden near us is certainly very bike friendly, but is also very car oriented. The intersections are wide and fast, lots of traffic signals, relatively wide residential streets--it would feel very familiar, except with added bike infrastructure.

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.1207629,...?entry=ttu

It is quite interesting to see just how many different stops there are on the continuum between car dependent hellhole and car free utopia .