King-Victoria Transit Hub

[ijmorlan]

…, loss of OMB as a backup to obtain approvals ….

Is the OMB really a factor? Since the Region owns the site, they have to approve anyway, as site owner, and if they approve as owner presumably they will approve as zoning authority. It wouldn’t make sense for the Region, with the developer, to appeal the Region’s planning decisions to the OMB.

I agree a lot of the other factors make some sense to me. I hope we see some movement before too long, but it’s definitely not an ordinary site and that might make it harder to find somebody to work on it.

[welltoldtales]

The other major issue is half the build is engendered to having two-way all day GO, but that isn't a formality. Right now the MOU has been signed but who knows what happens over the medium to long-term. There hasn't been movement on the key pieces to building two-way, such as electrification or expanded access over the highway. They are still in EA mode and things can change pretty drastically during that process.

[Viewfromthe42]

I believe the OMB is a non-factor since this is the Region's land. You normally go to the OMB if you own land, propose something, and the Region or other level won't let you do that, and you go to the OMB (or LPAT or the newfangled thing whatever it's called) to convince them that the government isn't letting you use your land appropriately. The Region won't let you use the region's land until you give them a proposal they like, so there's no appeal to be made in this case. This is why I believe that the region is being overly demanding in this case, not appreciating, as was said, how busy the big developers already are, how complex this site is, how much money it needs to make because of the region's transit demands alone, and how restrictive the size will be so that people who live right by what should be the densest node in the region don't actually have to deal with that.

[Spokes]

The other major issue is half the build is engendered to having two-way all day GO, but that isn't a formality. Right now the MOU has been signed but who knows what happens over the medium to long-term. There hasn't been movement on the key pieces to building two-way, such as electrification or expanded access over the highway. They are still in EA mode and things can change pretty drastically during that process.

Does the scheduling of GO Trains impact the build of the hub though?

[Spokes]

I believe the OMB is a non-factor since this is the Region's land. You normally go to the OMB if you own land, propose something, and the Region or other level won't let you do that, and you go to the OMB (or LPAT or the newfangled thing whatever it's called) to convince them that the government isn't letting you use your land appropriately. The Region won't let you use the region's land until you give them a proposal they like, so there's no appeal to be made in this case. This is why I believe that the region is being overly demanding in this case, not appreciating, as was said, how busy the big developers already are, how complex this site is, how much money it needs to make because of the region's transit demands alone, and how restrictive the size will be so that people who live right by what should be the densest node in the region don't actually have to deal with that.

But with the One Hundred Condos there was a property owner from Arthur Pl who took them to the OMB

[KevinL]

I don't think the frequency of the trains should affect the construction, given that they'll still stop at Weber until it's finished. And it won't affect the design to a big degree; they'll build the platforms that the Region specifies.

[Viewfromthe42]

I believe the OMB is a non-factor since this is the Region's land. You normally go to the OMB if you own land, propose something, and the Region or other level won't let you do that, and you go to the OMB (or LPAT or the newfangled thing whatever it's called) to convince them that the government isn't letting you use your land appropriately. The Region won't let you use the region's land until you give them a proposal they like, so there's no appeal to be made in this case. This is why I believe that the region is being overly demanding in this case, not appreciating, as was said, how busy the big developers already are, how complex this site is, how much money it needs to make because of the region's transit demands alone, and how restrictive the size will be so that people who live right by what should be the densest node in the region don't actually have to deal with that.

But with the One Hundred Condos there was a property owner from Arthur Pl who took them to the OMB

Yes, and the Breithaupt neighbourhood wouldn't surprise me one bit if they took the region to the LPAT over the hub, having decried 1Vic as having devastated their skyline from Breithaupt, but the developer doesn't own anything. They will work with the region to develop a proposal, but ultimately will agree to the proposal, and won't ever be in a position to go to the LPAT to request more.

[MidTowner]

Yes, and the Breithaupt neighbourhood wouldn't surprise me one bit if they took the region to the LPAT over the hub, having decried 1Vic as having devastated their skyline from Breithaupt, but the developer doesn't own anything. They will work with the region to develop a proposal, but ultimately will agree to the proposal, and won't ever be in a position to go to the LPAT to request more.

"The Breithaupt neighbourhood" as in the Mount Hope Breithaupt Park Neighbourhood Association (or a splinter group, with or without association status)? Did this happen often with the OMB?

There is a big- and vocal- contingent of anti-development types in the neighbourhood for sure. But can they go to the LPAT? And how could they claim to speak for the neighbourhood? Obviously the majority of neighbours won't care one way or the other, others will be excited about the development generally, and some might even for some reason be really supportive of whatever proposal is put forward specifically. How could the MHBPNA (or another group) bring a claim on behalf of "Mount Hope"?

[Viewfromthe42]

I'm not suggesting that they would bring a claim explicitly on the part of the neighbourhood as a whole, but we saw some neighbours around a gas station turned coffee shop on Ottawa near Maclennan Park try to go the OMB route to stop the development, and saw random anonymous neighbours in Waterloo pull together tens of thousands to fight the ability of Muslims to have a place to pray for a couple dozen people, not to mention many other examples of residents, groups of residents, and resident groups going to council and beyond with their wants. I've run into some of the people who live around that neighbourhood when it related to developments like Breithaupt, TBUDG, the Hub, etc, and my hopes aren't high that Kitchener Council and the Region are already backing away from sensible options for a site of such magnitude in the region, and suspect heavily that this is why the developers are balking at being able to pay for what the Region wants, let alone make a profit on all the risk involved.

[Spokes]

As for timing, McGaghey said it's possible they can still complete the project on the original schedule,

"There are a number of approaches that would allow us to move forward on virtually the same schedule that we were attending, or we may choose to push some elements of the project off, if it makes sense for the project," said McGaghey.

The Region now said they will start looking for a new partner early in 2019.

https://www.kitchenertoday.com/local-new...er-1112128


I can't see how this is even remotely possible.

[Rainrider22]

I honestly think the scope of this project might be too big for our Regional employees to handle. I dont have a lot of confidence in them pulling this off properly.

[Pheidippides]

I honestly think the scope of this project might be too big for our Regional employees to handle. I dont have a lot of confidence in them pulling this off properly.

And yet those same employees outsmarted all the developers in quietly assembling all parcels needed. The developers are probably just upset they did not buy the properties first.

[Quadcities34]

Before a shovel is put in the ground, whomever gets approved to build needs to buy the land from the city first, or financing to begin construction will not be obtainable. That could have been an underlying reason as to why Perimeter backed out as well (land value too high?). Developer financing is secured using the land as collateral, hence why when builds go under water, the 1st lender in place looks to sell off the land and whatever is on it to recoup funds. My OMB factor comment was mainly due to how slow issues will now take to resolve with OMB shifting to the new LPAT council system. Think of it similar to how Doug Ford slashed TO city council, but 3x worse. If anyone files a claim against the project once proposals hit the ground, 2 year wait minimum. You though 100 Victoria's hold up was brutal....

[tomh009]

Do we actually know that the region (not the city) intends to sell the land to the developer? It's certainly also possible to build on (and finance construction on) land on a long-term lease.

LPAT reviews should actually be quicker than OMB.

[ijmorlan]

I honestly think the scope of this project might be too big for our Regional employees to handle. I dont have a lot of confidence in them pulling this off properly.

And yet those same employees outsmarted all the developers in quietly assembling all parcels needed. The developers are probably just upset they did not buy the properties first.

That is a good point which should never be forgotten. We often complain, usually justifiably, about ham-handed work by Regional staff. But in the case of buying up the transit terminal lands, they, and Council, did a great job — bought all but one parcel on the sly, and assembled it with no fuss, publicity, or scandal. Not an easy task!