General Township Updates and Rumours

[nms]

Interesting. It seems to simply be a matter of swapping the use of their respective fields. The driving range shoots into the field designated for farming and owned by the farmer, while the farmer uses the field owned by the numbered company that is zoned for commercial/industrial and stockyards industrial.

[Bjays93]

Not sure if this belongs in suburbs or townships but madison group has a bunch of signs up along fountain in Breslau. Obviously more houses coming out there.

[SF22]

While it doesn't seem to be 100% confirmed yet, there is definitely a plan in place to extend Ottawa St past where it currently ends around Lackner to go over the Grand River and connect with Fountain Street in Breslau. Looks like the Ottawa extension will be built on the Breslau side first within the next 8 years, and then the bridge built last (in 2041+). Madwest Breslau Ltd, which is designing a new neighbourhood area that will be bordered by Fountain and the train tracks, is incorporating the new extension of Ottawa St into their neighbourhood design.

Breslau overview, including options to zone more for residential, employment, or a mix: https://www.engagewr.ca/breslau-secondary-plan-update
Specifically check out this map for suggested timelines for new roads: https://www.engagewr.ca/36983/widgets/15...nts/107889
Madwest neighbourhood map, including detail of Ottawa St: https://www.engagewr.ca/36984/widgets/15...nts/104825

If this all goes through as planned, Breslau is going to change a lot over the next 15-20 years. New GO park & ride station, expanded airport with transit links, better road/sidewalk connections within Breslau itself, lots of new homes and commercial spaces, plus the likely new Highway 7. Also looks like they want to connect the end of Fountain in a straight line over to Ebycrest to streamline the Breslau bypass, instead of the current zig-zag configuration of Ebycrest>Victoria>Fountain.

I am very interested in the possibility of opening up access to the Grand River greenspace on both sides to pedestrians and cyclists, with an easy and safe bridge crossing at Ottawa. It would be great if the Victoria St bridge was improved as well (or a separate pedestrian bridge added), so you could do a nice loop going down the river one way, and back up again on the other side, which would probably be around 5 km all the way around once they fill in the current connection gaps.

[ac3r]

Makes sense to extend it already, Breslau such a rapidly growing suburb of the city. An extended Ottawa Street and a bridge over the river would also be great for public transit. It'd provide a much more direct route across the river to growing suburbs over there, meaning you could have something like the 204 (or whatever number it is) cross that, go up Woolwich and back down Victoria. Or a more localized bus route could be created which would be good for the Grand River North neighbourhood. I don't think they have any bus service. It'd also be good for first responders, connect a lot of businesses and cut off some time it takes to get to the aiport.

A bridge over Ottawa could also be useful whenever we build another LRT line...reclaim that old quarry area and zone it for high density development, run it over the river to connect to the airport then Breslau/Breslau GO then to downtown and so on. :'P

[ZEBuilder]

Makes sense to extend it already, Breslau such a rapidly growing suburb of the city. An extended Ottawa Street and a bridge over the river would also be great for public transit. It'd provide a much more direct route across the river to growing suburbs over there, meaning you could have something like the 204 (or whatever number it is) cross that, go up Woolwich and back down Victoria. Or a more localized bus route could be created which would be good for the Grand River North neighbourhood. I don't think they have any bus service. It'd also be good for first responders, connect a lot of businesses and cut off some time it takes to get to the aiport.

A bridge over Ottawa could also be useful whenever we build another LRT line...reclaim that old quarry area and zone it for high density development, run it over the river to connect to the airport then Breslau/Breslau GO then to downtown and so on. :'P

While we're at it how about we send the LRT down to Maple Grove then, stops for Toyota and all that industrial area, then just over to Hespler where you can cross the Speed River on the bridge it's wide enough for a set of tracks, then just a guideway like they're doing for the Hurontario LRT across the 401 and half the expense to get to Cambridge is solved. No more Grand River and Speed River Bridge, no Bridge across the hwy 8 ramp, no bridge across Fairway, no bridge across the CN/CP tracks in Preston. You're making all the people of Preston happy and connecting the industrial to some transit for once.

I also bet that people would be okay with the LRT crossing the Grand River on Ottawa since they're getting another road connection. Seems like a perfect way to appease everyone.

[SF22]

Makes sense to extend it already, Breslau such a rapidly growing suburb of the city. An extended Ottawa Street and a bridge over the river would also be great for public transit. It'd provide a much more direct route across the river to growing suburbs over there, meaning you could have something like the 204 (or whatever number it is) cross that, go up Woolwich and back down Victoria. Or a more localized bus route could be created which would be good for the Grand River North neighbourhood. I don't think they have any bus service. It'd also be good for first responders, connect a lot of businesses and cut off some time it takes to get to the aiport.

A bridge over Ottawa could also be useful whenever we build another LRT line...reclaim that old quarry area and zone it for high density development, run it over the river to connect to the airport then Breslau/Breslau GO then to downtown and so on. :'P

I mean, we know that Ottawa St has been earmarked for a potential LRT route in the future. Seems like a total obvious opportunity to link up the airport and/or Breslau GO station on the far end. If the new hospital ends up getting built on the Aud space (like Luisa thinks it should be), and the far end terminates at the Sunrise Centre, an LRT line along Ottawa could be really useful.

Breslau does have bus service, but it's an interesting pilot project where the bus doesn't have a set schedule, but you book a time and place in advance and it basically compiles all the requests to make a route and schedule. Definitely not for hopping on the bus on a whim. https://www.grt.ca/en/schedules-maps/rou...of-service

At any rate, I thought it was interesting when you look at the current end of Ottawa St, how the city has clearly left the space open to continue it straight forward across the river, with no houses fronting on that stretch of road. This has quietly been in the works for a long time.

[westwardloo]

Breslau is undoubtedly going to continue to experience a majority of the regions sprawl in the next decade or 2. Unfortunately, like most suburbs there was little to no planning in regards to its growth.  A bunch of disconnected sfh subdivisions served by hardly any amenities, community centres poor transit and connected by 1 road.  I think things will change as it grows, but I wish Woolwich had foreseen its growth and developed a proper community plan, instead of just allowing the mattamy homes of the world decide how to build a community.

Also I have no idea why the Breslau Go station is being planned near greenhouse road. It has the least connection to the community and will be the hardest to integrate with public transit. Even after the Fountain st connector road is built. Personally I think the GO station should be built between Woolwich st and Fountain street on the north side of the street. With access to the station from both streets. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4812367,...&entry=ttu

[SF22]

Breslau is undoubtedly going to continue to experience a majority of the regions sprawl in the next decade or 2. Unfortunately, like most suburbs there was little to no planning in regards to its growth.  A bunch of disconnected sfh subdivisions served by hardly any amenities, community centres poor transit and connected by 1 road.  I think things will change as it grows, but I wish Woolwich had foreseen its growth and developed a proper community plan, instead of just allowing the mattamy homes of the world decide how to build a community.

Also I have no idea why the Breslau Go station is being planned near greenhouse road. It has the least connection to the community and will be the hardest to integrate with public transit. Even after the Fountain st connector road is built. Personally I think the GO station should be built between Woolwich st and Fountain street on the north side of the street. With access to the station from both streets. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4812367,...&entry=ttu

If you haven't already, I think you should check out some of the EngageWR links I posted above. They are definitely trying to rectify some of the connection issues that exist (although Breslau is currently hodgepodge partially because they've done an alright job of respecting all the creeks running through it, and worked around forested spaces, so I can't fault them for that).

The GO station location is interesting, and not what I expected either, but I have to assume that Metrolinx has done their due diligence. Once the connector road is built between Fountain and Greenhouse Rd, the proposed GO location will be just as central to as many residences as the Fountain/Woolwich location would be, and they'll have more space to build the facility they want.

[danbrotherston]

Breslau is undoubtedly going to continue to experience a majority of the regions sprawl in the next decade or 2. Unfortunately, like most suburbs there was little to no planning in regards to its growth.  A bunch of disconnected sfh subdivisions served by hardly any amenities, community centres poor transit and connected by 1 road.  I think things will change as it grows, but I wish Woolwich had foreseen its growth and developed a proper community plan, instead of just allowing the mattamy homes of the world decide how to build a community.

Also I have no idea why the Breslau Go station is being planned near greenhouse road. It has the least connection to the community and will be the hardest to integrate with public transit. Even after the Fountain st connector road is built. Personally I think the GO station should be built between Woolwich st and Fountain street on the north side of the street. With access to the station from both streets. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4812367,...&entry=ttu

If you haven't already, I think you should check out some of the EngageWR links I posted above. They are definitely trying to rectify some of the connection issues that exist (although Breslau is currently hodgepodge partially because they've done an alright job of respecting all the creeks running through it, and worked around forested spaces, so I can't fault them for that).

The GO station location is interesting, and not what I expected either, but I have to assume that Metrolinx has done their due diligence. Once the connector road is built between Fountain and Greenhouse Rd, the proposed GO location will be just as central to as many residences as the Fountain/Woolwich location would be, and they'll have more space to build the facility they want.

Define "done their due diligence"?

Is it a location which prioritises minimising NIMBY opposition, cost, and maximises access for parking in that order....I have no doubt, they are a marginally competent organisation.

Is that a good thing...I would strongly argue no.

It does vary, but in the case of Metrolinx the problem is not that they are unable to do the things they try to do...it is that they don't do the right things.

[nms]

If the GO Station were to be put between Woolwich St and Fountain St, would the topography support a larger station? Based on what I recall of the proposal, it doesn't look like Metrolinx is planning for something as small and as barebones as the Acton GO station.

[Bytor]

While we're at it how about we send the LRT down to Maple Grove then, stops for Toyota and all that industrial area,

Industrial areas like that rarely, if ever, produce enough ridership to make an LRT worthwhile. Where "worthwhile" is enough ridership such that the average cost per ride comes down to below that of a bus route for teh same number of people. With rough North American costs, that's somewhere around 7,000 boardings per average weekday.

BTW, this route was presented by anti-LRT NIMBY's back in 2017 doing their best trying to appear "reasonable", and it was honestly looked at by the Region and rejected for the dumb idea that it was.

then just over to Hespler

Hespeler and Maple grove barely hav enough people riding the iXpress 203 (barely 1,000/weekday in fall 2019) to make it worthwhile, so an LRT would require LOTS of increase to get there.

The iXpress 206 from Fairway through Preston to Galt tripled the 203's ridership when it started up in September 2019.

And if you're talking about connecting from Ac3r's hupothetical Ottawa LRT down Fountain to Maple Grove, that's an worse idea to fo an LRT from low density Breslau through rural township to low=density Maple Grove. You'd have less people than ride the 203.

where you can cross the Speed River on the bridge it's wide enough for a set of tracks, then just a guideway like they're doing for the Hurontario LRT across the 401 and half the expense to get to Cambridge is solved. No more Grand River and Speed River Bridge,

No, you still have to bridge both rivers as you have to get from Fairway station down to Sportsworld to then go out Maple Grove. All you're doing is moving the bridge across the Speed from Preston to Hespeler.

no Bridge across the hwy 8 ramp, no bridge across Fairway, no bridge across the CN/CP tracks in Preston. You're making all the people of Preston happy and connecting the industrial to some transit for once.

Don't mistake loud NIMBY's for the actual resident majority sentiments. They'd be far more happy with a Preston station and quality, reliable transit to the rest of Cambridge as with the current proposed Stage 2 route.

I also bet that people would be okay with the LRT crossing the Grand River on Ottawa since they're getting another road connection. Seems like a perfect way to appease everyone.

You're basically proposing spending billions on an LRT with ridership of less than the iXpress 203. Yeah, that real nice appeasing you got there.

[ZEBuilder]

While we're at it how about we send the LRT down to Maple Grove then, stops for Toyota and all that industrial area,

Industrial areas like that rarely, if ever, produce enough ridership to make an LRT worthwhile. Where "worthwhile" is enough ridership such that the average cost per ride comes down to below that of a bus route for teh same number of people. With rough North American costs, that's somewhere around 7,000 boardings per average weekday.

BTW, this route was presented by anti-LRT NIMBY's back in 2017 doing their best trying to appear "reasonable", and it was honestly looked at by the Region and rejected for the dumb idea that it was.

then just over to Hespler

Hespeler and Maple grove barely hav enough people riding the iXpress 203 (barely 1,000/weekday in fall 2019) to make it worthwhile, so an LRT would require LOTS of increase to get there.

The iXpress 206 from Fairway through Preston to Galt tripled the 203's ridership when it started up in September 2019.

And if you're talking about connecting from Ac3r's hupothetical Ottawa LRT down Fountain to Maple Grove, that's an worse idea to fo an LRT from low density Breslau through rural township to low=density Maple Grove. You'd have less people than ride the 203.

where you can cross the Speed River on the bridge it's wide enough for a set of tracks, then just a guideway like they're doing for the Hurontario LRT across the 401 and half the expense to get to Cambridge is solved. No more Grand River and Speed River Bridge,

No, you still have to bridge both rivers as you have to get from Fairway station down to Sportsworld to then go out Maple Grove. All you're doing is moving the bridge across the Speed from Preston to Hespeler.

no Bridge across the hwy 8 ramp, no bridge across Fairway, no bridge across the CN/CP tracks in Preston. You're making all the people of Preston happy and connecting the industrial to some transit for once.

Don't mistake loud NIMBY's for the actual resident majority sentiments. They'd be far more happy with a Preston station and quality, reliable transit to the rest of Cambridge as with the current proposed Stage 2 route.

I also bet that people would be okay with the LRT crossing the Grand River on Ottawa since they're getting another road connection. Seems like a perfect way to appease everyone.

You're basically proposing spending billions on an LRT with ridership of less than the iXpress 203. Yeah, that real nice appeasing you got there.

It's just a theoretical extension to ac3r's LRT route, if you look at what they said it's very obviously just as much as a pipe dream as what I said, there's no way the old gravel pits will be high density, there's no way Breslau as a whole will have enough density to support a LRT, mind you the region still seems to show the LRT going into Breslau so there doesn't seem to be an aversion to putting an LRT in a low density area, looking at the current LRT you have Block Line Station which fits that it is basically surrounded by low rise and employment. 

Secondly while what I said may be a pipe dream it would certainly make getting from Cambridge to YKF fairly simplistic in comparison to what they would have to do if Phase 2 and Phase 3 go ahead as planned since you would have a direct connection to GO/YKF with the theoretical route.

The province considers everything between the 401 and Kossuth Rd as a "Provincially significant employment area" as per ROPA 6 so might as well provide a half decent connection to it.

Obviously people don't want to pay 4.5 billion for the phase 2 LRT so in theory while it may not provide the best connection to those in Preston there could certainly be cost benefits in going the route I suggested, you would have to cross the Grand River at Ottawa St which is going to be done regardless so by putting a LRT on it you don't have to make a entirely separate bridge which would have some cost benefits, then crossing the Speed River and 401 wouldn't be difficult since Hespler is so wide there, now the MTO would probably get in the way by the 401 but a elevated guideway would solve that, then you go down Hespler like the current phase 2 route, you're eliminating the need for 5 or so bridges which is what makes up so much of the cost for phase 2. So in theory it could be cheaper and sit better with the general public because of it.

Again it was just a theoretical connection to phase 2' and 3's current route that has the potential to connect with services that people desire to a greater degree such as YKF, GO and obviously the massive future employment lands

[Bytor]

mind you the region still seems to show the LRT going into Breslau

Where are you getting that from? The map for hypothetical stage 3 from 2018 only showed going out Victoria to to Lackner, not all the way to Breslau. https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/...p?tid=1180

so there doesn't seem to be an aversion to putting an LRT in a low density area, looking at the current LRT you have Block Line Station which fits that it is basically surrounded by low rise and employment. 

While the Block Line station area is less populous than other station areas, it's not really a low-density. There are a lot of apartments and townhouses within the catchment area and it has 43 residents and jobs per hectare compared to Country Hills' 25RJs/ha. Also, Block Line s targeted for 80RJs/ha by 2031.

It also happens to offer significant redevelopment potential as well as being on the direct route to the very high value Fairway station node.

The province considers everything between the 401 and Kossuth Rd as a "Provincially significant employment area" as per ROPA 6 so might as well provide a half decent connection to it.

Sure. Express bus from the LRT station at Sportsworld. But like I said, industrial lands rarely result in enough ridership. It may be "provincially significant" but you're only going to see more low density like Maple Grove with it's 30 jobs/ha. Not "massive" as you refer to them below.

Obviously people don't want to pay 4.5 billion for the phase 2 LRT so in theory while it may not provide the best connection to those in Preston there could certainly be cost benefits in going the route I suggested, you would have to cross the Grand River at Ottawa St which is going to be done regardless so by putting a LRT on it you don't have to make a entirely separate bridge which would have some cost benefits, then crossing the Speed River and 401 wouldn't be difficult since Hespler is so wide there, now the MTO would probably get in the way by the 401 but a elevated guideway would solve that, then you go down Hespler like the current phase 2 route, you're eliminating the need for 5 or so bridges which is what makes up so much of the cost for phase 2. So in theory it could be cheaper and sit better with the general public because of it.

Again it was just a theoretical connection to phase 2' and 3's current route that has the potential to connect with services that people desire to a greater degree such as YKF, GO and obviously the massive future employment lands

The cost savings would not be that dramatic as an LRT out Ottawa St to Breslau, down Fountain to Maple Grove Rd, over to Hespeler Rd. and down Galt is 25km instead of the 18km of the current plans.

It sacrifices Preston, a high value node which has 40-45R/ha today plus all the jobs of Preston Downtown, and can be redeveloped to be equal or greater than the 90RJs/ha of the Galt or Waterloo cores today as Regional population expands. Industrial like Maple Grove will never be more than 30 jobs/ha. If you've read the Region's official plan, you should know that.

It also sacrifices Sportsworld, a high value commercial node with a few high density residences already planned. As of 2019 it had 39RJs/ha with a 2031 target of 160RJs/ha.

All to get to the airport that has so few and irregular flights that even a bus route hasn't been seen a necessary.

You're proposing a billions of dollars of spending for an LRT that would have at most 1,000 riders a day, something easily handled by a bus route for much cheaper. And all for what? To satisfy a few NIMBYs and for a link to barely active commercial airport and a GO station that hasn't even be built yet with no timeline to build it? It would be like building high speed rail on Baffin Island.

It's a ridiculous suggestion on the face of it.

[ac3r]

No need to get over analytical and contrarian, we're just playing mental Sim City and thinking up fun ideas of what might one day be possible as this region grows to have millions of citizens in the coming decades.

[sneepsnorp]

While the Block Line station area is less populous than other station areas, it's not really a low-density. There are a lot of apartments and townhouses within the catchment area and it has 43 residents and jobs per hectare compared to Country Hills' 25RJs/ha. Also, Block Line s targeted for 80RJs/ha by 2031.

Out of curiosity, is there a document somewhere, or a specific section of the official plan, that lists the Residential/Job densities of different neighbourhoods/parts of the region?