Region of Waterloo International Airport - YKF

[tomh009]

There are only 200-300 new commercial pilot licences issued per year at the moment, but the commercial pilot workforce is aging fast, so there will be a need for that to increase substantially. So, there is potential for WWFC to grow substantially to meet that demand.

I hadn’t realized the drop from Covid.  From over 1,000 a year to a couple hundred.  Although it seems like the data is from 2022 and so we are seeing Covid more than anything else.  Particularly given the lead time for a commercial license and the severe blow covid had to aviation.  It’ll be interesting to see the numbers of the people that started during the post-COVID aviation boom.

Not sure what numbers WWFC was using for their 20%.

WWFC numbers are of the total pilot population so that will not change as fast as the annual new pilot numbers.

[bravado]

Do we know a forecast for passenger volumes out of the airport with Flair stuck in limbo? It seems like we've spent a lot of public money to support an investment that doesn't really benefit too many locals...

I couldn’t find good numbers for how much money the region supports the airport (particularly operating + capital combined) but this is the benefit:

Key findings of the report show that YKFs total 2023 annual operations generated:

$390 million in total economic output
1,360 jobs and $100 million in wages, including 660 jobs at YKF
$170 million in Gross Domestic Product (GDP)
$28 million in tax revenue (local, provincial and federal)

So not sure I’d say it doesn’t benefit too many locals.

Without Flair, will the 2025 + beyond figures compare well or poorly against those 2023 numbers? How much does/did the Region spend in capital and ongoing improvements to support those figures from 2023?

I just have a (totally uninformed) hunch that the airport is a big hog of local government time + resources and seems to get no pushback about it, unlike other public services that have to constantly beg and defend their existence but can provide much bigger proportional returns to the public.

[SammyOES]

I hadn’t realized the drop from Covid.  From over 1,000 a year to a couple hundred.  Although it seems like the data is from 2022 and so we are seeing Covid more than anything else.  Particularly given the lead time for a commercial license and the severe blow covid had to aviation.  It’ll be interesting to see the numbers of the people that started during the post-COVID aviation boom.

Not sure what numbers WWFC was using for their 20%.

WWFC numbers are of the total pilot population so that will not change as fast as the annual new pilot numbers.

Oh, gotcha. I misread / misinterpreted it as 20% of new licenses. This stat is even more impressive, imo.

[SammyOES]

I couldn’t find good numbers for how much money the region supports the airport (particularly operating + capital combined) but this is the benefit:


So not sure I’d say it doesn’t benefit too many locals.

Without Flair, will the 2025 + beyond figures compare well or poorly against those 2023 numbers? How much does/did the Region spend in capital and ongoing improvements to support those figures from 2023?

I just have a (totally uninformed) hunch that the airport is a big hog of local government time + resources and seems to get no pushback about it, unlike other public services that have to constantly beg and defend their existence but can provide much bigger proportional returns to the public.

My (also fairly uninformed) hunch is that any change in Flair will be minimal in terms of impact to the airports economic impact because there are a lot of different things that happens there.

And yes, the numbers I posted are the pro - but I also have no idea the con. What did we spend.

I think the airport is a pretty reasonable expense for the region and has a good impact. I’d probably agree though that there are other services that don’t get the same benefit of the doubt that the airport has and also offer a strong return on investment.

[nms]

I couldn’t find good numbers for how much money the region supports the airport (particularly operating + capital combined) but this is the benefit:


So not sure I’d say it doesn’t benefit too many locals.

Without Flair, will the 2025 + beyond figures compare well or poorly against those 2023 numbers? How much does/did the Region spend in capital and ongoing improvements to support those figures from 2023?

I just have a (totally uninformed) hunch that the airport is a big hog of local government time + resources and seems to get no pushback about it, unlike other public services that have to constantly beg and defend their existence but can provide much bigger proportional returns to the public.

How does the level of investment and effort that the Region has put into the airport compare with what has been put into the King-Victoria transit hub? Or is it an apples and oranges situation because the airport is relatively insulated from other agencies or companies while the King-Victoria hub has to deal with Metrolinx and the railways (among others)?

[Momo26]

We have a really decent international airport and I tell people it's international any opportunity I get (that's me though - always boosting my Region!).

We should double down in efforts to get more flights coming in and out of here. Hamilton has Vegas, I dont see why we cannot add a couple Vegas trips a week. We have Orlando via Flair which is really nice. We also have some Mexico trips..anything else south south?

If we could get beyond those 4 hour flights and have carriers add say 2x/week Paris, Rome, London, Lisbon and Amsterdam, I think it would herald us to next level.

[SammyOES]

I don’t think transoceanic flights make sense. We’re limited on airplane size and we don’t have a robust network of connections. Add to that that people from Europe probably won’t want to come to Waterloo Region much as their final destination.

It just doesn’t seem particularly feasible to me.

[tomh009]

We should double down in efforts to get more flights coming in and out of here. Hamilton has Vegas, I dont see why we cannot add a couple Vegas trips a week. We have Orlando via Flair which is really nice. We also have some Mexico trips..anything else south south?

If we could get beyond those 4 hour flights and have carriers add say 2x/week Paris, Rome, London, Lisbon and Amsterdam, I think it would herald us to next level.

I think those Mexico and Orlando flights are gone now, Flair only has domestic flights from YKF. And demand is way down for any travel to the US, at least for the time being.

European travel direct from YKF really is a pipe dream. We don't have enough pax to justify a weekly flight, when all of those have multiple daily flights already departing from YYZ.

[SammyOES]

Here’s some information from the 2025 budget.

On the operating side the Region has 21 million dollars in operating expenses but net of user fees and airport revenue pays 9 million out of pocket.

Over the next 10 years the capital budget expects a total of 338 million dollars. But that breaks down roughly as:

- 90 million in replacement projects to maintain status quo.
- 125 million for projects in the next 5 years that I guess we can assume will likely happen.
- The rest is 5+ years out and would only happen without corresponding growth at the airport.

So call it 34 million/year in capital costs. But worth noting that that doesn’t all come out of the tax base because there are grants and other sources of funding. Development charges can also be used for some of this work.

But at a high level I think it’s safe to assume that the Region is “out of pocket” like 40 million dollars/year. And I think a scenario where the airport stagnates and the growth capital projects are delayed/cancelled then it’s probably closer to 20 million dollars/year.

[Kodra24]

We have a really decent international airport and I tell people it's international any opportunity I get (that's me though - always boosting my Region!).

We should double down in efforts to get more flights coming in and out of here. Hamilton has Vegas, I dont see why we cannot add a couple Vegas trips a week. We have Orlando via Flair which is really nice. We also have some Mexico trips..anything else south south?

If we could get beyond those 4 hour flights and have carriers add say 2x/week Paris, Rome, London, Lisbon and Amsterdam, I think it would herald us to next level.

Not sure if they still have the Fort Lauderdale flights? We took that route once and it was great not having to drive to Pearson and upon return we were home within 45 minutes of landing

More flights to sunny destinations and even direct European flights would definitely be welcome

[panamaniac]

We have a really decent international airport and I tell people it's international any opportunity I get (that's me though - always boosting my Region!).

We should double down in efforts to get more flights coming in and out of here. Hamilton has Vegas, I dont see why we cannot add a couple Vegas trips a week. We have Orlando via Flair which is really nice. We also have some Mexico trips..anything else south south?

If we could get beyond those 4 hour flights and have carriers add say 2x/week Paris, Rome, London, Lisbon and Amsterdam, I think it would herald us to next level.

Not sure if they still have the Fort Lauderdale flights? We took that route once and it was great not having to drive to Pearson and upon return we were home within 45 minutes of landing

More flights to sunny destinations and even direct European flights would definitely be welcome

I'd be happy if there were just a flight to Ottawa.

[KevinL]

The new Airport Growth plan has been posted; it has recommendations for extensions of both runways and, perhaps most dramatic, eventually changing the main entrance from Fountain Street to the extended Ottawa Street - and building a completely new passenger terminal, on the northeast side of the runway join.

Full details:

https://pub-regionofwaterloo.escribemeet...ntId=17431 (155MB PDF)

[nms]

Please tell me which North American cities have hard architectural standards controlling whether any given building is to be allowed to be built.

There are voluntary committees in some of the major Canadian cities, which do a good job at permitting the sort of absolute slop you see in this region being built, unless it's considered low value land. It's not like Toronto or Vancouver don't have really ugly developments, they're just far less noticeable for many reasons.

But it's not even about committees, design and review boards or only allowing good architects/designers/planners to work. You just need your local society to have common sense and a desire to utilize good placemaking choices for the evolution of the built environment they and their descendants want to live in. The problem is, almost nobody in Waterloo Region really gives a shit. Thus, you end up with stuff like this and all the other issues that exist.

The new Airport Growth plan has been posted; it has recommendations for extensions of both runways and, perhaps most dramatic, eventually changing the main entrance from Fountain Street to the extended Ottawa Street - and building a completely new passenger terminal, on the northeast side of the runway join.

Full details:

https://pub-regionofwaterloo.escribemeet...ntId=17431 (155MB PDF)

This link doesn't appear to work (Error 404)

[SammyOES]

You can get the draft here: https://www.engagewr.ca/ykf-growth-plan

I really feel like the region should abandon the commercial growth plans. It’s a chicken and egg situation where without the investment in things like the runway extensions it’s hard to get commercial flights. But even with those investments the commercial flights aren’t guaranteed.

It’s been years and decades of trying to attract airlines and it’s been mediocre results at best.

We could focus on what we’re good at (the flight school, GA, and commercial support businesses).

[plam]

You can get the draft here: https://www.engagewr.ca/ykf-growth-plan

I really feel like the region should abandon the commercial growth plans.  It’s a chicken and egg situation where without the investment in things like the runway extensions it’s hard to get commercial flights.  But even with those investments the commercial flights aren’t guaranteed.

It’s been years and decades of trying to attract airlines and it’s been mediocre results at best. 

We could focus on what we’re good at (the flight school, GA, and commercial support businesses).

There is also the Air Canada bus (which they are running from other airports as well). danbrotherston has pointed out that it doesn't need to be from the airport for any particular reason, but it is, and it does seem to get a bunch of people who are connecting to places that YKF never could. I would rarely actually fly from YKF for my travel patterns.