The COVID-19 pandemic

[jeffster]

A technical advisory group established by the World Health Organization said on Tuesday that current COVID-19 vaccines may need to be updated to ensure they are effective against new variants like Omicron: https://www.reuters.com/business/healthc...022-01-11/

I believe Moderna is already working on it. However, Moderna generally isn't used on people, especially males, under 30 anymore due to too many problems. Not sure if a newly updated one would change that, but I certainly wouldn't let me kids get one, as my 18 year old son ended up in the ER due to Moderna (and almost died).

[danbrotherston]

Moderna has extremely rare side effects, less than even AZ which was also extremely rare. We only don’t use Moderna for younger people because with have Pfizer. If we didn’t have Pfizer we would have zero qualms about giving Moderna, it’s many (dozens of?) orders of magnitude safer than getting Covid and I’d give it to my daughter in an instant.

[tomh009]

Moderna has extremely rare side effects, less than even AZ which was also extremely rare. We only don’t use Moderna for younger people because with have Pfizer. If we didn’t have Pfizer we would have zero qualms about giving Moderna, it’s many (dozens of?) orders of magnitude safer than getting Covid and I’d give it to my daughter in an instant.

Moderna has extremely rare serious side effects. Mild ones are common.

I don't believe Moderna has applied for approval for kids, though.

[Spokes]

So sounds like schools are opening, but my cynical and unfortunately too often proved right opinion is that they have leaked this to test public response, because the people running our government are too incompetent to even understand public perception.

In other news, Peel Memorial's ER is closed....

This is going to be a rough couple of months...best to avoid needing a hospital.

I'm shocked they're reopening.  What changed since last week?

That being said they've announced an announcement for today, so we'll see

[Rainrider22]

I am happy they are opening. Both my girls need to get back into class... They need it for many reasons.

[plam]

Moderna has extremely rare side effects, less than even AZ which was also extremely rare. We only don’t use Moderna for younger people because with have Pfizer. If we didn’t have Pfizer we would have zero qualms about giving Moderna, it’s many (dozens of?) orders of magnitude safer than getting Covid and I’d give it to my daughter in an instant.

Moderna has extremely rare serious side effects. Mild ones are common.

I don't believe Moderna has applied for approval for kids, though.

Moderna was doing tests for under 5s but I think the FDA said they wanted more data.

Basically the mRNA in Pfizer and Moderna is almost the same, but there's more mRNA in Moderna, which is possibly why it's more long-lasting against Omicron (sounds weird but I'm not an immunologist).

[danbrotherston]

Moderna has extremely rare side effects, less than even AZ which was also extremely rare. We only don’t use Moderna for younger people because with have Pfizer. If we didn’t have Pfizer we would have zero qualms about giving Moderna, it’s many (dozens of?) orders of magnitude safer than getting Covid and I’d give it to my daughter in an instant.

Moderna has extremely rare serious side effects. Mild ones are common.

I don't believe Moderna has applied for approval for kids, though.

Yes, I mean, true. I guess sore arm and mild illness like symptoms for a day are technically side effects, and are somewhat common. The rare side effects are exceedingly rare, 1 in hundreds of thousands, or even millions, I haven't looked at the actual numbers in a while.

Neither Pfizer nor Moderna have applied for kids under 5, and Moderna has not applied for anyone under 18. But both Pfizer and Moderna are doing paediatric studies for children under 5.

Pfizers study is a bust. The dosage selected is probably too low and has not demonstrated a robust antibody response in children over 2 years old. They are trying a third dose, but my inexpert feeling is that is a hail mary. Probably they'll have to start the study again, so probably summer at best.

Moderna used a higher dosage, and I don't know that the data has been seen yet, but it doesn't sound like they have the same problem as Pfizer with no antibody response. Instead the FDA apparently requested that they include a larger sample size which has pushed expected date of results back from January to at least March.

Neither study has submitted data for approval, because neither company believes they would be approved with the current results.

[tomh009]

[quote="tomh009" pid="98855" dateline="1641995898"]
Basically the mRNA in Pfizer and Moderna is almost the same, but there's more mRNA in Moderna, which is possibly why it's more long-lasting against Omicron (sounds weird but I'm not an immunologist).

The RNA itself is quite similar. However, they also have different lipid nanoparticles that carry the RNA ...

[danbrotherston]

I am happy they are opening. Both my girls need to get back into class...  They need it for many reasons.

What do you think re-opening will look like? What if the school has no teachers and all students who do show up are forced to sit close to each other in a large room and learn nothing? What if they get COVID sitting in that room because there is no cohorting and they are combined with hundreds of other students? What if they transmit COVID to their friends who might be more vulnerable? What if they get injured and need to go to the hospital and there isn't an ER open because hundreds of thousands more people get infected every and thousands end up in hospitals?

I want kids in school as well, but I also understand that our government has put us in a position where re-opening is exceedingly dangerous, and increasingly pointless. My daycare is open, but my daughter is not there.

[Rainrider22]

Both my kids had covid over the holidays and I saw first hand how little it effected them. Interestingly enough, my wife who has all vaccinations got it too from the kids. She is still under the weather and was way worse then the kids. I never tested positive, (I am vaccinated) but I am sure I did have it too. Couple of days with an itchy throat.

My kids mental health and learning is important, on line learning is not effective. Both my daughters are extremely high achievers in school, they are suffering not being in class.
I am fine with my kids sitting beside other children. They are already out playing with all their classmates and doing birthday parties etc. anyways.
"If" they have to go to the emergency. I don't live in the if, I live life. I have family members who work in the hospital, they have told me that they are doing fine coping and it was worse before. I am working in the public everyday liaising with emergency services and no one is saying to me that they are overwelled. I have not missed a day of work and had vacations canceled because of Covid. Myself and my colleagues all feel the same way, we can manage, why cant others.

What you fear as dangerous is your decision, it isn't mine though. (I respect your decisions, I agree that a person has to do what they believe is right for their situation free of any judgement)

[danbrotherston]

Both my kids had covid over the holidays and I saw first hand how little it effected them.  Interestingly enough, my wife who has all vaccinations got it too from the kids.  She is still under the weather and was way worse then the kids.    I never tested positive, (I am vaccinated) but I am sure I did have it too.  Couple of days with an itchy throat.

My kids mental health and learning is important, on line learning is not effective.  Both my daughters are extremely high achievers in school, they are suffering not being in class.
I am fine with my kids sitting beside other children.  They are already out playing with all their classmates and doing birthday parties etc. anyways.
"If" they have to go to the emergency.  I don't live in the if, I live life. I have family members who work in the hospital, they have told me that they are doing fine coping and it was worse before. I am working in the public everyday liaising with emergency services and no one is saying to me that they are overwelled. I have not missed a day of work and had vacations canceled because of Covid. Myself and my colleagues all feel the same way, we can manage, why cant others.

What you fear as dangerous is your decision, it isn't mine though. (I respect your decisions, I agree that a person has to do what they believe is right for their situation free of any judgement)

Your children...who are vaccinated...unlike mine, who is ineligible for vaccination?

It is your and your children's choice to be out playing with classmates and having birthdays. That's a choice which is contributing to the spread of COVID (you yourself acknowledge your family got it, do you know if you spread it to anyone else? anyone vulnerable?).

As for your family members who work in hospitals, where do they work? Apparently not Peel, whose ER is closed right now. Others will follow, we are still growing exponentially, this isn't going to get better. I don't understand why you think it being fine now means anything about the future?

I think it's awfully selfish of you and your colleagues to question why others "can't manage" when others cannot be vaccinated, when others are in vulnerable groups. You KNOW these things, so why do you think you don't know why others "can't manage".

What I recognize as a dangerous situation is different from you because I am IN A DIFFERENT SITUATION FROM YOU, not because I am more fearful than you. Also, because I recognize exponential growth and can use that understanding to predict the future.


Edit: Umm...you didn't go to work at your job where you liaise with the public while you were sick likely with COVID did you?!

[jeffster]

Both my kids had covid over the holidays and I saw first hand how little it effected them.  Interestingly enough, my wife who has all vaccinations got it too from the kids.  She is still under the weather and was way worse then the kids.    I never tested positive, (I am vaccinated) but I am sure I did have it too.  Couple of days with an itchy throat.

My kids mental health and learning is important, on line learning is not effective.  Both my daughters are extremely high achievers in school, they are suffering not being in class.
I am fine with my kids sitting beside other children.  They are already out playing with all their classmates and doing birthday parties etc. anyways.
"If" they have to go to the emergency.  I don't live in the if, I live life. I have family members who work in the hospital, they have told me that they are doing fine coping and it was worse before. I am working in the public everyday liaising with emergency services and no one is saying to me that they are overwelled. I have not missed a day of work and had vacations canceled because of Covid. Myself and my colleagues all feel the same way, we can manage, why cant others.

What you fear as dangerous is your decision, it isn't mine though. (I respect your decisions, I agree that a person has to do what they believe is right for their situation free of any judgement)

Kids mental health, and just about everything, absolutely justifies reopening as soon as possible. Too much time has been lost. Ontario shouldn't be the outlier when it comes to school closure.

I think we're closing in on territory of learning to live with Covid rather than live in fear of Covid. Over 90% of people are vaccinated, yet the virus continues among the vaccinated group. Time to move forward, but should allow parents to keep their kids home if they're living in fear of Covid. But those parents need to understand the risk of mental health issues in kids is much greater than the risk of Covid.

[jeffster]

Current 7-day Covid-19 cases per 100k

• City of Hamilton Public Health Services 701.7
• Lambton Public Health 667.4

• Region of Waterloo Public Health and Emergency Services 666.9

• Halton Region Public Health 658.4
• Eastern Ontario Health Unit 651.6
• Chatham-Kent Public Health 647.1
• Windsor-Essex County Health Unit 638.6
• Durham Region Health Department 634.6
• Peel Public Health 628.8
• York Region Public Health 585.9
• Middlesex-London Health Unit 549.9
• Niagara Region Public Health 536.1
• Brant County Health Unit 519.3
• Haldimand-Norfolk Health Unit 518.1
• Simcoe Muskoka District Health Unit 479.7
• Toronto Public Health 476.6
• Ottawa Public Health 466.1
• Northwestern Health Unit 451.7
• Thunder Bay District Health Unit 441.5
• Public Health Sudbury & Districts 434.6
• Southwestern Public Health 418.0
• Porcupine Health Unit 396.7
• Wellington-Dufferin-Guelph Public Health 389.2
• Hastings Prince Edward Public Health 378.7
• Peterborough Public Health 342.6
• Haliburton, Kawartha, Pine Ridge District Health Unit 317.6
• Algoma Public Health 313.7
• Kingston, Frontenac and Lennox & Addington Public Health 290.1
• Grey Bruce Health Unit 288.4
• Renfrew County and District Health Unit 286.3
• Huron Perth Public Health 277.6
• North Bay Parry Sound District Health Unit 262.8
• Timiskaming Health Unit 223.3
• Leeds, Grenville & Lanark District Health Unit 215.4

• TOTAL ONTARIO 524.7

[Rainrider22]

Both my kids had covid over the holidays and I saw first hand how little it effected them.  Interestingly enough, my wife who has all vaccinations got it too from the kids.  She is still under the weather and was way worse then the kids.    I never tested positive, (I am vaccinated) but I am sure I did have it too.  Couple of days with an itchy throat.

My kids mental health and learning is important, on line learning is not effective.  Both my daughters are extremely high achievers in school, they are suffering not being in class.
I am fine with my kids sitting beside other children.  They are already out playing with all their classmates and doing birthday parties etc. anyways.
"If" they have to go to the emergency.  I don't live in the if, I live life. I have family members who work in the hospital, they have told me that they are doing fine coping and it was worse before. I am working in the public everyday liaising with emergency services and no one is saying to me that they are overwelled. I have not missed a day of work and had vacations canceled because of Covid. Myself and my colleagues all feel the same way, we can manage, why cant others.

What you fear as dangerous is your decision, it isn't mine though. (I respect your decisions, I agree that a person has to do what they believe is right for their situation free of any judgement)

Your children...who are vaccinated...unlike mine, who is ineligible for vaccination?

It is your and your children's choice to be out playing with classmates and having birthdays. That's a choice which is contributing to the spread of COVID (you yourself acknowledge your family got it, do you know if you spread it to anyone else? anyone vulnerable?).

As for your family members who work in hospitals, where do they work? Apparently not Peel, whose ER is closed right now. Others will follow, we are still growing exponentially, this isn't going to get better. I don't understand why you think it being fine now means anything about the future?

I think it's awfully selfish of you and your colleagues to question why others "can't manage" when others cannot be vaccinated, when others are in vulnerable groups. You KNOW these things, so why do you think you don't know why others "can't manage".

What I recognize as a dangerous situation is different from you because I am IN A DIFFERENT SITUATION FROM YOU, not because I am more fearful than you. Also, because I recognize exponential growth and can use that understanding to predict the future.


Edit: Umm...you didn't go to work at your job where you liaise with the public while you were sick likely with COVID did you?!

My children are not vaccinated. 

I know where my  first child got it but I am not going to speak openly on a forum about my kids activities so you can judge us. And our entire family kept to ourselves for the prescribed time period which meant not spending Christmas with our family.   That was exactly my point about saying you do what you want to do for you

I work in Peel, The ER is not closed.  Peel memorial campus was closed but it does not have an emergency department, All emerg goes to Brampton Civic Hospital.

As for my work, I will answer you, I took vacation time over Christmas and simply utilized 2 more vacation days instead of sick days even though according our our organizational guide lines, I could have gone to work. I just wanted to be extra cautious for others...

[ZEBuilder]

What do you think re-opening will look like? What if the school has no teachers and all students who do show up are forced to sit close to each other in a large room and learn nothing? What if they get COVID sitting in that room because there is no cohorting and they are combined with hundreds of other students?

I want kids in school as well, but I also understand that our government has put us in a position where re-opening is exceedingly dangerous, and increasingly pointless. My daycare is open, but my daughter is not there.

Being someone who has close connections with people who work in the school board they don't want kids back in schools because they don't believe it is safe to do so, the HEPA filters that the government is giving to schools are primarily being used in Kindergarten classrooms and most highschools don't have many. They want students to have just as much protection as themselves because it doesn't make sense for them to have protection when the 20+ students they're with don't necessarily have the means to get high quality masks.

Many staff members are already having to isolate because of Covid cases within their families and going back is just going to make this issue worse. Staffing was already a major issue before Omicron since there already was a lack of supply teachers/ECE's/EA's that it was extremely common for their to be fail to fills and with Omicron that's only going to make the problem worse.

In kindergarten and highschools students are already forced to sit close to each other, in many highschools there are classes of 30-40 people who are elbow to elbow and many students stay in their classrooms for lunch because of the cold so you have 30+ students without masks on for all of lunch so Omicron is inevitably going to spread through school's.

It just doesn't make sense to open schools right now when our hospitalizations aren't close to peaking since opening of schools is just going to result in another wave that's going to start in kids and work it's way to everyone all over again.