ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit

[ijmorlan]

The fact is, they should have a good idea how long these things will take, if they don't, they aren't managing the project well.  There can be unexpected obstacles and we'd like to hear about those things as well, but they should know what's left.  I believe we (and "we" may include council and maybe even Region staff) just aren't being told.

Well said. The cone of silence around this project is appropriate for special ops, not for a transit project.

Although understanding in full detail what is going on requires a high level of interest, I think many people in town would like to have some information about what is going on. Imagine if they just tweeted stuff like this:

“Today we are testing the Cameron crossover after the repairs to the signalling system completed yesterday”

“No testing south of Mill today because crews are replacing the control units in the crossing control at Hayward”

“501 is still not in service due to work to replace the wiring harness”

(just examples made up, in case anybody thinks I have an inside track!)

[urbd]

This will be an unpopular opinion but as long as the system is safe then it should be open, and just looking at the LRVs going up and down the whole line without any visible or serious issues make it seem that it could be safe enough to operate. Yes, I am aware of the legality and the processes and checklists, I am just speaking hypothetically. A system like this in Mexico or Colombia or elsewhere would be open and running right now and just fixed/finished along the way, but Canada has an extremely strict process. Systems that are this complex have perpetual construction and maintenance associated with them, so I would be fine with it opening even if it's not 100% perfect.

[danbrotherston]

This will be an unpopular opinion but as long as the system is safe then it should be open, and just looking at the LRVs going up and down the whole line without any visible or serious issues make it seem that it could be safe enough to operate. Yes, I am aware of the legality and the processes and checklists, I am just speaking hypothetically. A system like this in Mexico or Colombia or elsewhere would be open and running right now and just fixed/finished along the way, but Canada has an extremely strict process. Systems that are this complex have perpetual construction and maintenance associated with them, so I would be fine with it opening even if it's not 100% perfect.

What level of service do you recommend opening at?

AFAIK the signals are not yet operating, so they can only run, 3 (or maybe 6) cars safely...meaning service is 30 minute at best.  Currently the iXpress provides better service.  There would be a huge service cut to start running.  More, starting revenue service will interfere with testing (seems like they test one section carefully, before moving on, on revenue service the cars have to run the whole route), so that could actually delay full service even longer.

The last part is the biggest problem, AFAIK neither the region, nor Grandlinq actually own any LRVs right now, since the signoff from Bombardier hasn't happened yet, Bombardier owns them, yes they *could* wave the signoff requirements--that wouldn't be wise. This is an artifact of how the contract is structured, but I think even in Mexico or Columbia, a government would have signoff requirements that need to be met. Part of the disconnect is that the route has been largely ready for some time and we are waiting on vehicles to be ready.

In some cases I might agree, but in this case, we currently have iXpress 200 operating the route, and the costs would be so high I don't think it makes any sense.

[plam]

I heard a platform announcement today at the University of Waterloo station. Couldn't quite tell what it was saying.

[urbd]

This will be an unpopular opinion but as long as the system is safe then it should be open, and just looking at the LRVs going up and down the whole line without any visible or serious issues make it seem that it could be safe enough to operate. Yes, I am aware of the legality and the processes and checklists, I am just speaking hypothetically. A system like this in Mexico or Colombia or elsewhere would be open and running right now and just fixed/finished along the way, but Canada has an extremely strict process. Systems that are this complex have perpetual construction and maintenance associated with them, so I would be fine with it opening even if it's not 100% perfect.

What level of service do you recommend opening at?

AFAIK the signals are not yet operating, so they can only run, 3 (or maybe 6) cars safely...meaning service is 30 minute at best.  Currently the iXpress provides better service.  There would be a huge service cut to start running.  More, starting revenue service will interfere with testing (seems like they test one section carefully, before moving on, on revenue service the cars have to run the whole route), so that could actually delay full service even longer.

The last part is the biggest problem, AFAIK neither the region, nor Grandlinq actually own any LRVs right now, since the signoff from Bombardier hasn't happened yet, Bombardier owns them, yes they *could* wave the signoff requirements--that wouldn't be wise. This is an artifact of how the contract is structured, but I think even in Mexico or Columbia, a government would have signoff requirements that need to be met. Part of the disconnect is that the route has been largely ready for some time and we are waiting on vehicles to be ready.

In some cases I might agree, but in this case, we currently have iXpress 200 operating the route, and the costs would be so high I don't think it makes any sense.

I would be totally fine with 30 min, even 45 min service to start WITH the 200 iXpress still running every 15 min or so (with adjusted route, to fill the middle of the ION 30 min wait).

As for the second part, I am aware of this and yes it's exactly part of the legality/process/bureaucracy I was referring to. What I meant by using Mexico and Colombia as examples is that the legal lines in those places are blurred and adjusted as necessary for political reasons. For example, if this was being built in Mexico and the trains were already 80% tested, the track 100% done, stations 100% done, and the ownership of the trains was not fully transferred legally, I am sure that local Mexican government would simply launch the system (pay a couple officials for X and Y companies to sign some sort of fake agreement while the 'legal' process is being done) even if it's not fully legal/tested/etc. Just putting things into perspective... of course I'd like a fully reliable system but I do feel we are over-cautious here sometimes.

[danbrotherston]

What level of service do you recommend opening at?

AFAIK the signals are not yet operating, so they can only run, 3 (or maybe 6) cars safely...meaning service is 30 minute at best.  Currently the iXpress provides better service.  There would be a huge service cut to start running.  More, starting revenue service will interfere with testing (seems like they test one section carefully, before moving on, on revenue service the cars have to run the whole route), so that could actually delay full service even longer.

The last part is the biggest problem, AFAIK neither the region, nor Grandlinq actually own any LRVs right now, since the signoff from Bombardier hasn't happened yet, Bombardier owns them, yes they *could* wave the signoff requirements--that wouldn't be wise. This is an artifact of how the contract is structured, but I think even in Mexico or Columbia, a government would have signoff requirements that need to be met. Part of the disconnect is that the route has been largely ready for some time and we are waiting on vehicles to be ready.

In some cases I might agree, but in this case, we currently have iXpress 200 operating the route, and the costs would be so high I don't think it makes any sense.

I would be totally fine with 30 min, even 45 min service to start WITH the 200 iXpress still running every 15 min or so (with adjusted route, to fill the middle of the ION 30 min wait).

As for the second part, I am aware of this and yes it's exactly part of the legality/process/bureaucracy I was referring to. What I meant by using Mexico and Colombia as examples is that the legal lines in those places are blurred and adjusted as necessary for political reasons. For example, if this was being built in Mexico and the trains were already 80% tested, the track 100% done, stations 100% done, and the ownership of the trains was not fully transferred legally, I am sure that local Mexican government would simply launch the system (pay a couple officials for X and Y companies to sign some sort of fake agreement while the 'legal' process is being done) even if it's not fully legal/tested/etc. Just putting things into perspective... of course I'd like a fully reliable system but I do feel we are over-cautious here sometimes.

Well that's terrible, IMO, now I have to guess whether to go to the iXpress stop or the LRT stop...

I really don't believe ownership of million dollar property is so flexible in South America, but I must admit, I really don't know.

I agree we are overcautious sometimes, but I don't necessarily believe this is one of those times.

[neonjoe]

Why not run the 301R buses in parallel...

[KevinT]

This will be an unpopular opinion but as long as the system is safe then it should be open, and just looking at the LRVs going up and down the whole line without any visible or serious issues make it seem that it could be safe enough to operate. Yes, I am aware of the legality and the processes and checklists, I am just speaking hypothetically.

Back in 1930 you could operate a system the moment the trains could run on the tracks. Of course back in 1930 people died on the job all the time and nobody other than their immediate friends and family cared. These days the system has to be able to operate safely and reliably, not just so that no one dies on the job but so that even the lowliest of innocent bystanders is not put at risk.

In 1930 a vehicle needed a working throttle, brakes, and little else. The driver's control authority was absolute and if he effed up or a single thing broke, you could die.

These days there's crossing signals, traffic signals, route coordination, collision prevention, limits enforcement, emergency brakes, automatic emergency brakes, holding brakes, cameras, e-stops, e-stop strips, heaters, air conditioners, lights, emergency lights, windshield wipers, horns, gongs, sanders, headlights, brake lights, turn signals, window defrosters, and a whole ton of other things I've overlooked. I want ALL of these things to be working properly because my safety is NOT an option. (Yes, you can be injured by malfunctioning HVAC equipment.) These aren't just check list items, these are real things that have to work because when they don't people get hurt. You can't look at it and say "Yep, that appears to work, ship it." because safety MUST be tested and proven. When it's not, well, there's that whole people getting hurt thing again. The rules may seem arbitrary, but when you look back I'm certain each of them was a direct result of somebody getting seriously hurt.

Of course you also can't forget about the destination boards, stop annunciators, PA systems, door openers/closers, door open/close buttons, and stop request buttons. These things are also important to the proper operation of the system. This should all be working before the system opens, and if I have to wait an extra few months for it then so be it. Just keep me informed so I know a little bit about why I'm waiting, and how long you think it's going to take.

[urbd]

Why not run the 301R buses in parallel...

Exactly...

[jason897]

I heard a platform announcement today at the University of Waterloo station. Couldn't quite tell what it was saying.

I heard an announcement at Victoria Park this afternoon something along the lines of "system testing is in progress... there is no passenger train service from this station at this time"

[plam]

I heard a platform announcement today at the University of Waterloo station. Couldn't quite tell what it was saying.

I heard an announcement at Victoria Park this afternoon something along the lines of "system testing is in progress... there is no passenger train service from this station at this time"

Yep, that was similar to what I heard.

[kitborn]

Kitchener Transit drivers are about to do their sign-up for the next spring period. I have been informed that they are signing routes that are currently in effect, meaning that the ION will not start until the next sign-up period (summer). However, it is possible to do a mini sign-up if the ION is completed.

[jeffster]

Kitchener Transit drivers are about to do their sign-up for the next spring period. I have been informed that they are signing routes that are currently in effect, meaning that the ION will not start until the next sign-up period (summer). However, it is possible to do a mini sign-up if the ION is completed.

I have a couple friends that work at GRT and both said something similar -- and they're thinking that LRT is likely summer 2020 at the earliest, or spring 2022 at the latest. Apparently 'not even remotely complete' but I have no idea what that means.

[Square]

Kitchener Transit drivers are about to do their sign-up for the next spring period. I have been informed that they are signing routes that are currently in effect, meaning that the ION will not start until the next sign-up period (summer). However, it is possible to do a mini sign-up if the ION is completed.

I have a couple friends that work at GRT and both said something similar -- and they're thinking that LRT is likely summer 2020 at the earliest, or spring 2022 at the latest. Apparently 'not even remotely complete' but I have no idea what that means.

Lol, why not 2030, when we get full GO trains and the High Speed trains! 

[trainspotter139]

Kitchener Transit drivers are about to do their sign-up for the next spring period. I have been informed that they are signing routes that are currently in effect, meaning that the ION will not start until the next sign-up period (summer). However, it is possible to do a mini sign-up if the ION is completed.

I have a couple friends that work at GRT and both said something similar -- and they're thinking that LRT is likely summer 2020 at the earliest, or spring 2022 at the latest. Apparently 'not even remotely complete' but I have no idea what that means.

'Not even remotely complete' in this industry can be the difference of missing a single piece of paperwork.