What does DTK need?

[Rainrider22]

Sorry, I'm incredibly late responding to these...

So, this is quite different from my lived experience, and most of the people I know in my building are similarly happy to live downtown, and do not express concerns about safety or peace of mind -- and neither are my colleagues at work concerned about safety (our office is in the heart of DTK).

Could this be because we are somewhat isolated from the streets inside our access-controlled condo building? Is that the difference? I don't know where you live so can't tell whether that's a differentiator. But my fellow residents, by and large, happily walk, shop, bike and eat downtown without feeling unsafe.

Now, most of the new DTK residents are living in access-controlled buildings, whether condos or rental apartments, so if that is the difference, those residents might be less likely to encounter the issues that you do.

I have also worked downtown a number of years and my co-workers have had mixed feelings, but are generally indifferent to the situation because the don't walk the streets, they drive to work, drive to lunch, drive back to work, drive home. Most would certainly not consider living downtown though, even if they are fine working there.

I live in an old mixed use building, one of many that line King St. My building is access controlled, though it only has a handful of apartments and so obviously no concierge or security that modern condos may have. Unfortunately, for a variety of reasons, people still get in and all of the tenants get to bond in fear or anger over whatever situation just occurred... I can say for sure: None of them are happy about living in this location. At first I was upset my unit doesn't have a fire escape for some reason, but since my neighbour has had to barricade all of her windows after countless break-and-enter attempts, I'll take my chances jumping out the window... Oh, and a previous tenant was once burglarized for well over $10k.

Since I've also been looking for a car, I asked the previous occupant of my unit if she had issues with the parking space. Sure enough, her window had been smashed 3 times.

So anyways, it's confusing to me that this forum is so starkly in "nothing is wrong" camp. I'm willing to entertain that it's me who is out of touch, but considering my urbanist biases it just seems statistically impossible that nearly all of the people I've met in person share the same opinions as me (which I wouldn't have shared before moving here).

I suspect some of this might be due to interpretation. Walking around DTK you see people living in doorways, high on drugs, or having other issues. To you and I we might say, "I have no concerns for myself" others might say "I was nearly killed"...  Now dtkvictim didn't lay out explicit example, so I am exaggerating to make the point, but absolutely there are differences in our tolerance to issues we experience day to day on the street.

FWIW I agree with you Tom, although I also lived in a controlled access condo building virtually all of the people I knew in the building (including both  families and many seniors male and female), none had negative feelings about living downtown, and we all experienced plenty of issues even in our building, including a significant break-in and also fairly frequently homeless people sleeping in and occasionally pooping in our entryway. But nobody felt intolerably unsafe.

Further, we experienced more property damage and break-ins at our single family (albeit century--near downtown) home prior to moving to our condo.

As a baseline:

Seeing beggars and being asked for money doesn't make me feel unsafe. Seeing people piss on buildings (including, usually, my own doorway), doesn't make me feel unsafe. People talking to themselves or even shouting generally doesn't make me feel unsafe. The black man who stopped me and spent 10 minutes telling me how much better he thought white people and society is didn't make me feel unsafe, nor did the drunk man who just left a bar question his gender identity and needed some help (though these certainly made me uncomfortable not knowing how to handle them!).

However, the repeat fires outside of my building make me feel unsafe. Being assaulted (or attempted) makes me feel unsafe. People who get into my building trying to enter apartments makes me feel unsafe. Being touched (but not assaulted) countless times borders on feeling unsafe. The countless death threats (often while being followed), make me feel unsafe. Having things thrown at me (happened twice) make me feel unsafe.

It would take a while to lay out every specific example for you to "judge". But within a single week after my post (i.e. they weren't even factors in making my post) I had

1) A man entered our building after the building lock stuck during the first freeze, and tried to break into our apartment while I slept, and my spouse was up alone. I woke up to her shouting, the man running away. This made us feel unsafe, and comforting my spouse's subsequent breakdown and feelings of violation sure as hell reinforced that.

2) My spouse and I went for a walk after work as we do (or did) every single day. Walking through Water/Joseph, a man walking in our direction ~40 meters away shouts "DIE!". As we pick up our pace, he breaks out into a full sprint towards us and chases us all the way to Gaukel St before stopping. I don't know if I convey how frighting being chased in the dark by someone who shouted "DIE!" is, but I assure you that made us feel unsafe. Now my spouse won't go outside after dark, which basically means staying inside all winter.

3) The next day, since I'm now running after-dark errands alone, I go shopping on King St. On my way between shops, a man is attempting to smash in the glass door of a Cannabis shop and shouting death threats at the security guard holding the door shut from inside. After he gives up he heads down the street shouting at pedestrians. He gets to the KWFamous pop-up shop I was going to next, knocks over the planters outside, and then throws the pop-up shop's sign towards other pedestrians. Ultimately I looped around the block while he wandered away, but I definitely considered not shopping there that day. I'm quite sure the pedestrians on his side of the street felt unsafe, the security guard felt unsafe, and the parents on the way to skating who picked up their children and ran across the street felt unsafe.

I also won't share my female spouse's solo experiences without consulting her, but her collective situations seem to have been 10x worse than mine.

Now, with some more clarification on how I formed my opinions, are these examples simply a matter of interpretation? In your world, are these acceptable living conditions in your neighbourhood?

Thank you for sharing your intimate experience.  I would love it if you shared this with mayor and city counsel.   I am going to share it with my cousin who sits on the police service board and regional counsel as well.  We need more real personal stories like this that remove the bias and say it like it is.

[danbrotherston]

The vendors at the market all have standard signs, as well, indicating if they are the growers directly, a reseller for local growers, or just an importer.

Yes, the vendor signage was really awesome. I loved that they did that.

[danbrotherston]

Sorry, I'm incredibly late responding to these...

So, this is quite different from my lived experience, and most of the people I know in my building are similarly happy to live downtown, and do not express concerns about safety or peace of mind -- and neither are my colleagues at work concerned about safety (our office is in the heart of DTK).

Could this be because we are somewhat isolated from the streets inside our access-controlled condo building? Is that the difference? I don't know where you live so can't tell whether that's a differentiator. But my fellow residents, by and large, happily walk, shop, bike and eat downtown without feeling unsafe.

Now, most of the new DTK residents are living in access-controlled buildings, whether condos or rental apartments, so if that is the difference, those residents might be less likely to encounter the issues that you do.

I have also worked downtown a number of years and my co-workers have had mixed feelings, but are generally indifferent to the situation because the don't walk the streets, they drive to work, drive to lunch, drive back to work, drive home. Most would certainly not consider living downtown though, even if they are fine working there.

I live in an old mixed use building, one of many that line King St. My building is access controlled, though it only has a handful of apartments and so obviously no concierge or security that modern condos may have. Unfortunately, for a variety of reasons, people still get in and all of the tenants get to bond in fear or anger over whatever situation just occurred... I can say for sure: None of them are happy about living in this location. At first I was upset my unit doesn't have a fire escape for some reason, but since my neighbour has had to barricade all of her windows after countless break-and-enter attempts, I'll take my chances jumping out the window... Oh, and a previous tenant was once burglarized for well over $10k.

Since I've also been looking for a car, I asked the previous occupant of my unit if she had issues with the parking space. Sure enough, her window had been smashed 3 times.

So anyways, it's confusing to me that this forum is so starkly in "nothing is wrong" camp. I'm willing to entertain that it's me who is out of touch, but considering my urbanist biases it just seems statistically impossible that nearly all of the people I've met in person share the same opinions as me (which I wouldn't have shared before moving here).

I suspect some of this might be due to interpretation. Walking around DTK you see people living in doorways, high on drugs, or having other issues. To you and I we might say, "I have no concerns for myself" others might say "I was nearly killed"...  Now dtkvictim didn't lay out explicit example, so I am exaggerating to make the point, but absolutely there are differences in our tolerance to issues we experience day to day on the street.

FWIW I agree with you Tom, although I also lived in a controlled access condo building virtually all of the people I knew in the building (including both  families and many seniors male and female), none had negative feelings about living downtown, and we all experienced plenty of issues even in our building, including a significant break-in and also fairly frequently homeless people sleeping in and occasionally pooping in our entryway. But nobody felt intolerably unsafe.

Further, we experienced more property damage and break-ins at our single family (albeit century--near downtown) home prior to moving to our condo.

As a baseline:

Seeing beggars and being asked for money doesn't make me feel unsafe. Seeing people piss on buildings (including, usually, my own doorway), doesn't make me feel unsafe. People talking to themselves or even shouting generally doesn't make me feel unsafe. The black man who stopped me and spent 10 minutes telling me how much better he thought white people and society is didn't make me feel unsafe, nor did the drunk man who just left a bar question his gender identity and needed some help (though these certainly made me uncomfortable not knowing how to handle them!).

However, the repeat fires outside of my building make me feel unsafe. Being assaulted (or attempted) makes me feel unsafe. People who get into my building trying to enter apartments makes me feel unsafe. Being touched (but not assaulted) countless times borders on feeling unsafe. The countless death threats (often while being followed), make me feel unsafe. Having things thrown at me (happened twice) make me feel unsafe.

It would take a while to lay out every specific example for you to "judge". But within a single week after my post (i.e. they weren't even factors in making my post) I had

1) A man entered our building after the building lock stuck during the first freeze, and tried to break into our apartment while I slept, and my spouse was up alone. I woke up to her shouting, the man running away. This made us feel unsafe, and comforting my spouse's subsequent breakdown and feelings of violation sure as hell reinforced that.

2) My spouse and I went for a walk after work as we do (or did) every single day. Walking through Water/Joseph, a man walking in our direction ~40 meters away shouts "DIE!". As we pick up our pace, he breaks out into a full sprint towards us and chases us all the way to Gaukel St before stopping. I don't know if I convey how frighting being chased in the dark by someone who shouted "DIE!" is, but I assure you that made us feel unsafe. Now my spouse won't go outside after dark, which basically means staying inside all winter.

3) The next day, since I'm now running after-dark errands alone, I go shopping on King St. On my way between shops, a man is attempting to smash in the glass door of a Cannabis shop and shouting death threats at the security guard holding the door shut from inside. After he gives up he heads down the street shouting at pedestrians. He gets to the KWFamous pop-up shop I was going to next, knocks over the planters outside, and then throws the pop-up shop's sign towards other pedestrians. Ultimately I looped around the block while he wandered away, but I definitely considered not shopping there that day. I'm quite sure the pedestrians on his side of the street felt unsafe, the security guard felt unsafe, and the parents on the way to skating who picked up their children and ran across the street felt unsafe.

I also won't share my female spouse's solo experiences without consulting her, but her collective situations seem to have been 10x worse than mine.

Now, with some more clarification on how I formed my opinions, are these examples simply a matter of interpretation? In your world, are these acceptable living conditions in your neighbourhood?

With those clarifications, I agree, those are not comfortable or safe experiences, and I'd agree that I would also feel unsafe in those situations. You seem to describe a similar tolerance to experience that I have. I only suggested a difference in tolerance because it seemed more likely than us having wildly different actual experiences living in such close proximity. I really cannot explain that difference.

FWIW when we lived in a house in a near-downtown but still clearly suburban location, we did come home to our door half broken open (yes, security doors for the win). But in our condo building, I didn't even bother locking our apartment door. In the four years we were there, we had 2 break and enter related thefts, but in both cases, the offenders did not enter apartments, did not even go near apartments.

[tomh009]

Thanks for the concrete examples. I can't explain all of it, but some of it (break-in attempts, smashed car windows) that are not happening to us may well correlate with modern condo building security (security fob entry, secured garage) vs older buildings. Absolutely not good experiences for you -- and yet not happening to me or our neighbours (I think our building's 200-car garage has seen only a handful of cars broken into in the seven years that we have been here). I don't know that there is any easy fix here, apart from moving to a newer building.

The "DIE" and sign-throwing incidents ... wow. I have not witnessed similar. I walk a lot on King St, Water St, Francis St, but probably not as much as you do, and probably much less after dark. These do feel like mental health issues, but not as harmless as many such issues are. As a society, we do need to address these. I think it's quite difficult to completely eliminate such problems, but certainly we need to work on them.

All that said ... I suspect these kinds of issues can occur in any larger city, they are not unique to Kitchener. But, as I wrote above, new downtown residents may be less likely to encounter them if they are living in new condo or apartment buildings with reasonable security, and maybe spending less time outside in the dark? It's a hypothesis, though, I really have no hard evidence to back that up.

[ijmorlan]

The "DIE" and sign-throwing incidents ... wow. I have not witnessed similar. I walk a lot on King St, Water St, Francis St, but probably not as much as you do, and probably much less after dark. These do feel like mental health issues, but not as harmless as many such issues are. As a society, we do need to address these. I think it's quite difficult to completely eliminate such problems, but certainly we need to work on them.

These are difficult for many reasons but one problem I see is that a lot of the debate (if it can be called that) is between “leftists” (to stereotype) who want to provide poverty and mental health supports; and “rightists” (to stereotype again) who want to lock them all up and throw away the key.

Of course, the real response is a combination of various responses. Obviously, just having harsher and harsher punishments is a recipe for enormous expense in the criminal justice system, not to mention the downstream effects of incarcerating lots of people. And for crimes that arise from desperation or mental health, the deterrence concept doesn’t really apply (by contrast, credibly threaten jail for economic crimes committed by rich people, and watch the crime disappear — those people can do the math, and will do anything to stay away from prison).

On the other hand, many of these crimes are crimes and are serious, even if not individually then in their overall effect on the city. So the mental health supports cannot be seen as an optional thing that is available to people if they want it; if somebody is regularly caught committing petty crimes, and it is judged to be a consequence of mental health problems, they need to be forced to participate in appropriate treatment. If they won’t, then that is tough for them: their right to whatever doesn’t trump the rights of the rest of us.

[plam]

On the other hand, many of these crimes are crimes and are serious, even if not individually then in their overall effect on the city. So the mental health supports cannot be seen as an optional thing that is available to people if they want it; if somebody is regularly caught committing petty crimes, and it is judged to be a consequence of mental health problems, they need to be forced to participate in appropriate treatment. If they won’t, then that is tough for them: their right to whatever doesn’t trump the rights of the rest of us.

I agree with almost all you're saying here. I will point out that mental health treatment is hard at the best of times and forcing people to participate in treatment is likely not going to get any good results at all. What's the solution? I don't know, sorry.

[ijmorlan]

On the other hand, many of these crimes are crimes and are serious, even if not individually then in their overall effect on the city. So the mental health supports cannot be seen as an optional thing that is available to people if they want it; if somebody is regularly caught committing petty crimes, and it is judged to be a consequence of mental health problems, they need to be forced to participate in appropriate treatment. If they won’t, then that is tough for them: their right to whatever doesn’t trump the rights of the rest of us.

I agree with almost all you're saying here. I will point out that mental health treatment is hard at the best of times and forcing people to participate in treatment is likely not going to get any good results at all. What's the solution? I don't know, sorry.

I don’t like the concept of forced treatment either. I just think it’s better than prison. Instead of repeatedly punishing people who are in many cases incapable of learning from the punishment, keep them where they have the best chance of surviving their problems without repeatedly harming others; and give them the possibility of obtaining treatment.

[dtkvictim]

Thank you for sharing your intimate experience.  I would love it if you shared this with mayor and city counsel.   I am going to share it with my cousin who sits on the police service board and regional counsel as well.  We need more real personal stories like this that remove the bias and say it like it is.

I have shared a number of my experiences with a Downtown BIA member, who I believe raised some discussion with the mayor and police. But you are right, I should be more active about sharing my experiences in my own words with the people that matter, since I don't know if my experiences were portrayed in the manner I would have wanted.

Has anyone writing Mike Morris gotten personal responses? I've been meaning to write him for a while, as I have more faith in him than anyone else I can write, and I believe most of the issues brought up here can't be solved exclusively (maybe not even significantly) by municipalities. Though he may have the lowest amount of real political influence of anyone I can write.

Thanks for the concrete examples. I can't explain all of it, but some of it (break-in attempts, smashed car windows) that are not happening to us may well correlate with modern condo building security (security fob entry, secured garage) vs older buildings. Absolutely not good experiences for you -- and yet not happening to me or our neighbours (I think our building's 200-car garage has seen only a handful of cars broken into in the seven years that we have been here). I don't know that there is any easy fix here, apart from moving to a newer building.

The "DIE" and sign-throwing incidents ... wow. I have not witnessed similar. I walk a lot on King St, Water St, Francis St, but probably not as much as you do, and probably much less after dark. These do feel like mental health issues, but not as harmless as many such issues are. As a society, we do need to address these. I think it's quite difficult to completely eliminate such problems, but certainly we need to work on them.

All that said ... I suspect these kinds of issues can occur in any larger city, they are not unique to Kitchener. But, as I wrote above, new downtown residents may be less likely to encounter them if they are living in new condo or apartment buildings with reasonable security, and maybe spending less time outside in the dark? It's a hypothesis, though, I really have no hard evidence to back that up.

I'm glad for you and all the others who haven't had significant issues. There is so much here to love, between the high quality independent shop owners and staff, best cycling infrastructure in the region, transit access, the park and trails, etc. And so I hope living here can continue to be a net positive for all of you.

But my initial point in all of this was that my personal experiences align with how large swaths of Canadians perceive urban Canada, and so it frustrates me to see their views dismissed as ignorant, hateful suburbanites (while acknowledging that many of them do exist). My urbanist ideals are primarily motivated by climate change, so the inability to get suburban Canada on board with radical changes to our built environment because we dismiss their concerns is a frightening prospect to me.

You are 100% right that this isn't a Kitchener specific issue though. As I've mentioned before, I've now seen probably thousands of comments from Vancouver, Toronto, Ottawa, and Calgary forums telling similar tales to mine, and so while I don't found others on this forums sharing my experience, I know it's not just me. I must have read 100+ comments from people claiming to have abandoned the TTC in favour of buying a car, even before the recent high profile events, which given my motivations, is a highly disappointing development. Even transit enthusiast (sometimes even transit apologist) RMTransit has noted safety concerns stemming from the same mental health and drug addiction roots.

And another point I want to address, not directly to you Tom, but I've seen people here use the development and population increase of places like DTK as evidence of the area's improvement and desirability. But for those of you looking for evidence that revitalization is working, I wouldn't recommend this metric during a housing crisis. I think I'm quite a bit below the average age of this forum, and frankly most of the people I know of my age aren't choosing where to live. They are taking the first housing that is both available and affordable, which usually means living in one of the few areas that actually has active development and small (cheap) units.

[tomh009]

And another point I want to address, not directly to you Tom, but I've seen people here use the development and population increase of places like DTK as evidence of the area's improvement and desirability. But for those of you looking for evidence that revitalization is working, I wouldn't recommend this metric during a housing crisis. I think I'm quite a bit below the average age of this forum, and frankly most of the people I know of my age aren't choosing where to live. They are taking the first housing that is both available and affordable, which usually means living in one of the few areas that actually has active development and small (cheap) units.

This is quite true -- we have young people on our team. But some of them are specifically looking to not buy a car, so they are looking to ideally live near downtown (walkable to work) or else convenient to transit. Because driving a car is expensive, too. So, indirectly, some young people also end up looking for housing near downtown.

[ijmorlan]

And another point I want to address, not directly to you Tom, but I've seen people here use the development and population increase of places like DTK as evidence of the area's improvement and desirability. But for those of you looking for evidence that revitalization is working, I wouldn't recommend this metric during a housing crisis. I think I'm quite a bit below the average age of this forum, and frankly most of the people I know of my age aren't choosing where to live. They are taking the first housing that is both available and affordable, which usually means living in one of the few areas that actually has active development and small (cheap) units.

This is quite true -- we have young people on our team. But some of them are specifically looking to not buy a car, so they are looking to ideally live near downtown (walkable to work) or else convenient to transit. Because driving a car is expensive, too. So, indirectly, some young people also end up looking for housing near downtown.

Of course, really they’re looking for a walkable neighbourhood; but thanks to zoning, the only place it’s legal to build walkable is downtown. Leading to an undersupply and walkability becoming associated in people’s minds with unaffordability even though in fact it is way more efficient and economical than designing the city to require driving everywhere.

[tomh009]

Of course, really they’re looking for a walkable neighbourhood; but thanks to zoning, the only place it’s legal to build walkable is downtown. Leading to an undersupply and walkability becoming associated in people’s minds with unaffordability even though in fact it is way more efficient and economical than designing the city to require driving everywhere.

That is quite true.

[Momo26]

My company is leaving the DTK area entirely. The two biggest issues to push for the move... parking (people rather have free then pay - ironically less important now given how the return to office has played out) and safety. The safety piece coming in higher than accessibility for our clients (many of which travel by public transit) and aesthetics/space and cost (I am not sure if new place is even cheaper per sqft tbh but it is on the EDGE of the region).

So that's even less crowd for coffee and lunch rush in DTK soon...

[danbrotherston]

My company is leaving the DTK area entirely. The two biggest issues to push for the move... parking (people rather have free then pay - ironically less important now given how the return to office has played out) and safety. The safety piece coming in higher than accessibility for our clients (many of which travel by public transit) and aesthetics/space and cost (I am not sure if new place is even cheaper per sqft tbh but it is on the EDGE of the region).

So that's even less crowd for coffee and lunch rush in DTK soon...

Leaving safety aside...

Ahh...the "free parking" complaint. So exhausting. Of course, there is no free parking. The difference is now parking will be a business expense that employees get for free. Meaning anyone who doesn't drive will now be paid less.

And moving to the edge of town is really shitty for any clients who take public transit, what proportion of clients is this? Does your company know how many this will affect?

[bravado]

Is parking at work a taxable benefit in some alternative reality? Should people who don’t drive get a refund from their employer?

[taylortbb]

Is parking at work a taxable benefit in some alternative reality? Should people who don’t drive get a refund from their employer?

Parking at work is a taxable benefit when parking costs money, like in DTK. But in the suburbs, where zoning mandates such massive amounts of parking that it drives the market price to zero, it's not considered a taxable benefit.

But just because the market price of parking is zero, doesn't mean parking is zero cost. It still has to be built, maintained, cleared of snow, etc. Some areas have adopted rules called parking cash out, which mandate that employees who don't use the parking get paid an amount equivalent to what the employer spends on providing free parking for the employees who drive.

It seems quite fair to me. If the employer is going to spend money on providing free parking, they should be mandated to offer an equally valuable credit towards transit/cycling/etc. The easiest form of which is to just give cash.