What does DTK need?

[dtkvictim]

Having said all that if people want to raise families near addicts/homeless/crime that is their choice, hence my reply to the previous poster above

If you think all the crime is downtown I have some news for you. Take a look at the WRPS GIS map, and filter on thefts, or assaults, for example (homicides are thankfully rare enough that the map does not provide meaningful data):
https://gismaps.policereporting.ca/verti...b0a72804d2

And I should note that addicts are found in the suburbs, too, although often inside their own homes.

I don't think anyone thinks all crime happens in one place, and none happens elsewhere. A difference in rates can provide a meaningful difference in quality of life and perception of safety, however. I also have no trust in the validity of the data from WRPS for the purpose of this argument. Certain events that are prevalent downtown, like harassment and uttering threats, will basically never appear in this data. Both the public and the police as far as I can tell have no expectation of decency or positive outcomes of dealing with a certain segment of the population found downtown, and simply don't bother with the processes that will result in occurrences showing up in the dataset. I've called the police for things that you or I would be charged for only to be asked "what do you want us to do about that?", effectively ending the interaction there.

The labeling of crimes can also be unhelpful here; one of the more recent times I had to call in was for a man who was throwing bricks at my building, the neighbouring building, and a business vehicle (which had just opened opened downtown two days prior...) while shouting racial slurs that I certainly won't be repeating here. He continued in his rage for about 20 minutes until the police showed up and simply asked him to leave. This was recorded as "Unwanted person", which doesn't capture the nuances including property damage and whatever harm the racial slurs might cause someone.

Whether these are actually unsafe situations or not, the general environment of stress and paranoia is one I certainly would never consider subjecting a child to. I was raised in various non-urban environments and I know life doesn't have to be like this.

Anyways, to Kodra's original complaints, I wonder if there is something particularly bad in the drug supply at the moment. My FIL was visiting this weekend and in the few blocks between Weber/Victoria to King/Ontario we had 3 separate (seemingly drug addicted) people step out in front of the car, one of which actively blocked us while screaming. In those same few blocks we also saw police dealing with 3 different situations. Not a good impression for sometime visiting the area. That same night I had to make a few trips between downtown and GRH on foot and LRT, and the vibe was really not good.

[danbrotherston]

If you think all the crime is downtown I have some news for you. Take a look at the WRPS GIS map, and filter on thefts, or assaults, for example (homicides are thankfully rare enough that the map does not provide meaningful data):
https://gismaps.policereporting.ca/verti...b0a72804d2

And I should note that addicts are found in the suburbs, too, although often inside their own homes.

I don't think anyone thinks all crime happens in one place, and none happens elsewhere. A difference in rates can provide a meaningful difference in quality of life and perception of safety, however. I also have no trust in the validity of the data from WRPS for the purpose of this argument. Certain events that are prevalent downtown, like harassment and uttering threats, will basically never appear in this data. Both the public and the police as far as I can tell have no expectation of decency or positive outcomes of dealing with a certain segment of the population found downtown, and simply don't bother with the processes that will result in occurrences showing up in the dataset. I've called the police for things that you or I would be charged for only to be asked "what do you want us to do about that?", effectively ending the interaction there.

The labeling of crimes can also be unhelpful here; one of the more recent times I had to call in was for a man who was throwing bricks at my building, the neighbouring building, and a business vehicle (which had just opened opened downtown two days prior...) while shouting racial slurs that I certainly won't be repeating here. He continued in his rage for about 20 minutes until the police showed up and simply asked him to leave. This was recorded as "Unwanted person", which doesn't capture the nuances including property damage and whatever harm the racial slurs might cause someone.

Whether these are actually unsafe situations or not, the general environment of stress and paranoia is one I certainly would never consider subjecting a child to. I was raised in various non-urban environments and I know life doesn't have to be like this.

Anyways, to Kodra's original complaints, I wonder if there is something particularly bad in the drug supply at the moment. My FIL was visiting this weekend and in the few blocks between Weber/Victoria to King/Ontario we had 3 separate (seemingly drug addicted) people step out in front of the car, one of which actively blocked us while screaming. In those same few blocks we also saw police dealing with 3 different situations. Not a good impression for sometime visiting the area. That same night I had to make a few trips between downtown and GRH on foot and LRT, and the vibe was really not good.

I don't think this is biased as you think. I've on more than one occasion been verbally, explicitly threatened by people who are not homeless or otherwise destitute (you can tell because they were often driving their families in nice vehicles, dressed in nice clothing), and the police also do not care. People are people, and people are often shitty, and even when they aren't shitty all the time, they will often act shitty anyway.

But in any case, I do understand that downtown seems to have become rougher in the time since I left. It is rather unfortunate, because before I left, people in my family believed downtown was problematic as you describe (I am assuming the experiences you describe are daily, routine, whatever, and not an exceptional thing that occurs once a year), and yet, was not. I had more drunk drivers crash into things around my home than I had interactions with homeless people in the 5 years we lived downtown. So yeah, when I worried about my daughter downtown, I worried about the drunk, aggressive, or distracted drivers, not the homeless people. If things have changed for the worse, that is unfortunate.

[the_conestoga_guy]

In the spirit of the actual purpose of this thread (What does Kitchener need), does anyone have any solutions that they’d like to offer to help combat these issues?

I have long believed that the best way to make our downtown “feel” more secure and safe for children is to increase the number of people living and working there. It’s a chicken & egg problem for nervous suburban families - they don’t want to live downtown because it’s safe, but the more people who live downtown will increase the general safety. 

As a short term fix, I’d love to see our inflated police budget leveraged towards something tangible that increases perceived safety, such as by constructing a “koban” outpost station along King downtown. This is something that has been discussed elsewhere in the forum before:
https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/...5#pid83735

Regarding our drug supply, it’s unfortunate that the province has chosen to shut down our only safe consumption site. I’m not an expert in this issue, but people who are seem to have thought this was a poor move. I have no idea what the plan is now to help drug-addicted people transition to leading less-harmful lives. 

Are there any other things you think downtown Kitchener needs to feel safer for raising families?

[danbrotherston]

In the spirit of the actual purpose of this thread (What does Kitchener need), does anyone have any solutions that they’d like to offer to help combat these issues?

I have long believed that the best way to make our downtown “feel” more secure and safe for children is to increase the number of people living and working there. It’s a chicken & egg problem for nervous suburban families - they don’t want to live downtown because it’s safe, but the more people who live downtown will increase the general safety. 

As a short term fix, I’d love to see our inflated police budget leveraged towards something tangible that increases perceived safety, such as by constructing a “koban” outpost station along King downtown. This is something that has been discussed elsewhere in the forum before:
https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/...5#pid83735

Regarding our drug supply, it’s unfortunate that the province has chosen to shut down our only safe consumption site. I’m not an expert in this issue, but people who are seem to have thought this was a poor move. I have no idea what the plan is now to help drug-addicted people transition to leading less-harmful lives. 

Are there any other things you think downtown Kitchener needs to feel safer for raising families?

Ultimately, the "solutions" don't really fit into the category of "what does DTK need", because these aren't a downtown problem, these are a Kitchener (and Waterloo, and all of Ontario, and most of Canada) problem. The "solutions" in as much as there are solutions are vastly more (sustainably built, non-sprawling) housing, better transportation options across the city, better mental health and addition supports including supervised consumption sites. I'm probably missing some as well.

These things cannot all be downtown.

So what does DTK need? DTK needs the rest of the city to step the fuck up!

As for the plan, there is no plan...they don't want to help these people, the catch phrase is "cruelty is the point", but that is not facetious either, most of the voters that are being pandered to here would rather believe that addiction is a moral failing and that people affected by it should be hurt or killed as a result of their "moral failing". They (wrongly) believe that this harm will "scare them straight", and even if it doesn't, these people suffering is fine. They believe this because it is easier than facing the reality that the past 50 years of their choices have created a crisis situation.

Boomers and GenX have seen a rise in house values unprecedented in the history of our world. And good for them. But now, they'll be the last generation to enjoy this prosperity.

[bravado]

My personal view is that helping the existing people is an insanely difficult job with awful success rates.

What isn’t as difficult: stopping new people from falling through the cracks in our decaying welfare state in the first place. Housing, transport, education, health, all normal public goods that we are letting decay on purpose. The symptoms of that decay are seen in drugs and homelessness (and people moving away).

[Kodra24]

I for one am extremely relieved to finally see the injection sites shut down (and hopefully turned into rehab/addiction centres) - perhaps the people that use them can finally start to receive the care they need

Promoting them is cruel beyond words

[tomh009]

My personal view is that helping the existing people is an insanely difficult job with awful success rates.

What isn’t as difficult: stopping new people from falling through the cracks in our decaying welfare state in the first place. Housing, transport, education, health, all normal public goods that we are letting decay on purpose. The symptoms of that decay are seen in drugs and homelessness (and people moving away).

I don't think it's impossible to help the currently homeless people, but you are certainly correct in that preventing problems is much easier (and less expensive!) than trying to fix them afterward.

[tomh009]

I for one am extremely relieved to finally see the injection sites shut down (and hopefully turned into rehab/addiction centres) - perhaps the people that use them can finally start to receive the care they need

What percentage of drug users do you think will want to enter rehab?

[Kodra24]

I for one am extremely relieved to finally see the injection sites shut down (and hopefully turned into rehab/addiction centres) - perhaps the people that use them can finally start to receive the care they need

What percentage of drug users do you think will want to enter rehab?

If 1 enters rehab and turns their life around the program is a success

[ac3r]

Forced rehab should be a possibility, but I know that gets into a messy ethical situation. People on one hand will argue you can't stop people from doing drugs if they want, so we should just let them do it. But obviously we know having thousands of hardcore drug addicts living on the streets is bad for them AND the rest of us. So how do you deal with that, especially if rehab programs allow you to just tap out and hit the streets again? Very few successfully make it through and get clean. They try, but then they're back to nodding off in random public spaces soon after.

This crisis is costing thousands of lives, tens of millions of dollars, destroying families and friendships, endangers the general public, degrades our community and so much more. If someone refuses to improve, would it be so wrong to involuntarily commit them to a facility that can get them off drugs?

[tomh009]

What percentage of drug users do you think will want to enter rehab?

If 1 enters rehab and turns their life around the program is a success

Even if two (or five, or ten) others die from overdoses because the safe injection site was closed?

[Joedelay Highhoe]

I for one am extremely relieved to finally see the injection sites shut down (and hopefully turned into rehab/addiction centres)

You're not comparing apples to apples. People will use drugs either way - so should they use drugs in the street, or in a facility where they can be saved in the event of an overdose?

It sounds like you're relieved that addicts will die on the street, which is cruel and ignorant.

[bravado]

That's the unspoken cruelty part: an addict dying in the street is one fewer addict to some of these people.

[dtkvictim]

I don't think this is biased as you think. I've on more than one occasion been verbally, explicitly threatened by people who are not homeless or otherwise destitute (you can tell because they were often driving their families in nice vehicles, dressed in nice clothing), and the police also do not care.

Interesting point. It's certainly true, but I haven't really experienced this myself. I am highly conflict avoidant though, which I'm not saying is right, but might change what I experience. My problems downtown have generally all been situations I had no way of avoiding other than not existing in this space. I also think there is a difference in people who have lost control of their emotions, versus people who have lost control of their minds.

That said, as someone who is out cycling often, I'm keenly aware of the reality that there are people out there who would be happy to see me run over. Fortunately I've never had anything close to that happen (the opposite actually, with people often yielding their right of way or saying "Hey cool bike" out of their window) - only people ignorant to my presence on the road.

I had more drunk drivers crash into things around my home than I had interactions with homeless people in the 5 years we lived downtown. So yeah, when I worried about my daughter downtown, I worried about the drunk, aggressive, or distracted drivers, not the homeless people.

Of course. My vehicle parked in a private spot (not a public lot) has been hit twice and it's large and stationary, and at least one of them was 100% drunk. Walking through Victoria and Weber multiple times a day, before the encampment ever existed, was probably more threatening to my safety than anything else I'm describing. But this is a problem you can hardly escape in Canada, and I'd rather not also have these other problems piled on top.

[panamaniac]

I for one am extremely relieved to finally see the injection sites shut down (and hopefully turned into rehab/addiction centres) - perhaps the people that use them can finally start to receive the care they need

Promoting them is cruel beyond words

Has the Province proposed that?  I thought they were just shutting them down.