Region of Waterloo International Airport - YKF

[plam]

Except you can take the city bus to the airport. It doesn't stop at convenient locations but it still exists.

I have taken the on demand service 79 once from YKF! I have also biked there. Not necessarily something I would recommend, but it's possible.

https://www.waterlooairport.ca/en/passen...ation.aspx

[SammyOES]

Except not really. Why would anyone want to either operate in the Region of Waterloo or even fly in/out of it? You can't even take a city bus to the airport or get into the region easily if you live elsewhere, yet they want to be an important Canadian airport!

I’d love to see demographics but I don’t think this is the issue at all. The general region is growing fast enough that we can support a lot of these flights without drawing people from much further away. And it’s easy to drive to and park at as long as you’re not coming from Toronto.

And I think the reality is that the large majority of people living in this area and in the market for a flight have a car and would prefer to drive to the airport.

Or another way of looking at it, we need a much better base transit system before we have a large enough market of people where the transit to the airport is a determining factor in their purchasing decision.

[SammyOES]

Also, just because this sometimes gets lost in the talk about commercial traffic and passengers, Waterloo is already an important Canadian airport. Recently #8 by aircraft movements. Not the same business case as moving passengers but still an important airport to support and brings a lot of value to things like local Universities and the wider air travel industry in Canada.

[plam]

I’d love to see demographics but I don’t think this is the issue at all.  The general region is growing fast enough that we can support a lot of these flights without drawing people from much further away.  And it’s easy to drive to and park at as long as you’re not coming from Toronto. 

And I think the reality is that the large majority of people living in this area and in the market for a flight have a car and would prefer to drive to the airport. 

Or another way of looking at it, we need a much better base transit system before we have a large enough market of people where the transit to the airport is a determining factor in their purchasing decision.

Also, just because this sometimes gets lost in the talk about commercial traffic and passengers, Waterloo is already an important Canadian airport.  Recently #8 by aircraft movements.  Not the same business case as moving passengers but still an important airport to support and brings a lot of value to things like local Universities and the wider air travel industry in Canada.

Mostly I would rather not fly out of YKF because I don't get frequent flyer perks unless I take the Air Canada bus. And I have taken the bus several times, even if it can be pretty inconvenient. I did ditch a booked bus once when an alternative was more convenient (you can only do that on the return).

But: YKF actually takes 30 minutes to drive to from the University. The big advantage in terms of time is that you're not subject to the 401 being broken, or rather, Air Canada will fix things for you if you're on the AC bus. So, that is, if there is no traffic, you're only 30 minutes closer to YKF than to YYZ. The taxi to YKF ($25) is admittedly much cheaper than to YYZ though.

And once I parked at YKF and found it to be more expensive than off-airport parking at YYZ (eg park4u). Of course, on-airport parking at YYZ is pricey. But on-airport parking at YKF is $15/day sometimes (with a shuttle, when available) and $20/day (no shuttle).

Also, doesn't the aircraft movements number include flight training for a lot of the count?

[danbrotherston]

I’d love to see demographics but I don’t think this is the issue at all.  The general region is growing fast enough that we can support a lot of these flights without drawing people from much further away.  And it’s easy to drive to and park at as long as you’re not coming from Toronto. 

And I think the reality is that the large majority of people living in this area and in the market for a flight have a car and would prefer to drive to the airport. 

Or another way of looking at it, we need a much better base transit system before we have a large enough market of people where the transit to the airport is a determining factor in their purchasing decision.

Also, just because this sometimes gets lost in the talk about commercial traffic and passengers, Waterloo is already an important Canadian airport.  Recently #8 by aircraft movements.  Not the same business case as moving passengers but still an important airport to support and brings a lot of value to things like local Universities and the wider air travel industry in Canada.

Mostly I would rather not fly out of YKF because I don't get frequent flyer perks unless I take the Air Canada bus. And I have taken the bus several times, even if it can be pretty inconvenient. I did ditch a booked bus once when an alternative was more convenient (you can only do that on the return).

But: YKF actually takes 30 minutes to drive to from the University. The big advantage in terms of time is that you're not subject to the 401 being broken, or rather, Air Canada will fix things for you if you're on the AC bus. So, that is, if there is no traffic, you're only 30 minutes closer to YKF than to YYZ. The taxi to YKF ($25) is admittedly much cheaper than to YYZ though.

And once I parked at YKF and found it to be more expensive than off-airport parking at YYZ (eg park4u). Of course, on-airport parking at YYZ is pricey. But on-airport parking at YKF is $15/day sometimes (with a shuttle, when available) and $20/day (no shuttle).

Also, doesn't the aircraft movements number include flight training for a lot of the count?

Yes, this is the biggest factor. I am constantly paranoid about there being a crash on the 401 and delaying me 3 hours (it's happened before) and missing a 2k CAD flight. And there's nothing that can be done about it...there is no other realistic option for getting there (or well, there wasn't when this was a regular issue for me, now I can in theory take the GO Train/Via + UP Express).

Yes, movements includes training flights which also do touch and gos, it creates significantly higher numbers than commercial flights would.

[SammyOES]

But: YKF actually takes 30 minutes to drive to from the University. The big advantage in terms of time is that you're not subject to the 401 being broken, or rather, Air Canada will fix things for you if you're on the AC bus. So, that is, if there is no traffic, you're only 30 minutes closer to YKF than to YYZ. The taxi to YKF ($25) is admittedly much cheaper than to YYZ though.

It’s 23 minutes by google. And even more important it’s a reliable time because there are multiple routes that get you there in 30 minutes.  Further, once you’re there it’s significantly faster to actually get to the terminal and through to the gate. Particularly if we’re comparing parking at an off-airport lot.

I’m also not sure the University is a particularly representative location. The good thing about the airport is that it’s basically within 30 minutes of most of the region. And again, a reliable 30 minutes.

Also, doesn't the aircraft movements number include flight training for a lot of the count?

Yes. But my point is that it’s an important airport for the aviation industry even though we don’t pull our weight for commercial traffic.  Lots of places do flight training with touch and gos - but Waterloo does a lot more than most.

[dtkvictim]

Yes, this is the biggest factor. I am constantly paranoid about there being a crash on the 401 and delaying me 3 hours (it's happened before) and missing a 2k CAD flight. And there's nothing that can be done about it...there is no other realistic option for getting there (or well, there wasn't when this was a regular issue for me, now I can in theory take the GO Train/Via + UP Express).

And VIA is hardly more reliable than driving is... Not to mention the lack of scheduling options. We've missed our train transfer in Union multiple times, despite a nearly 1.5hour layover. I imagine GO is much more reliable though.

[SammyOES]

I just saw an ad from the flight school at the airport and it said:

Nearly 20% of total commercial pilot licenses in Canada are graduates of the Waterloo Wellington Flight Centre at CYKF.

That seems pretty impressive.

[danbrotherston]

I just saw an ad from the flight school at the airport and it said:

Nearly 20% of total commercial pilot licenses in Canada are graduates of the Waterloo Wellington Flight Centre at CYKF.

That seems pretty impressive.

It is and it isn't...niche things tend to have very few places you can train for those things. For example, a huge proportion of Ontario teachers went to UWO, a huge proportion of optometrists went to UW, a huge proportion of Mathematics degrees are from UW. And those I can name off the top of my head  .

I think flying is probably one of the more niche things...I'm not sure how many there are but if there were more than 250 new commercial pilots a year in Canada I'd be surprised.

[tomh009]

There are only 200-300 new commercial pilot licences issued per year at the moment, but the commercial pilot workforce is aging fast, so there will be a need for that to increase substantially. So, there is potential for WWFC to grow substantially to meet that demand.

[SammyOES]

The examples listed don’t seem particularly great. Commercial licenses are Canada wide and flight schools can (and are) run in a lot of different places.

But also, those comparisons don’t really show that it isn’t impressive. Being compared to UW’s math or optometry program is impressive!

[SammyOES]

There are only 200-300 new commercial pilot licences issued per year at the moment, but the commercial pilot workforce is aging fast, so there will be a need for that to increase substantially. So, there is potential for WWFC to grow substantially to meet that demand.

I hadn’t realized the drop from Covid. From over 1,000 a year to a couple hundred. Although it seems like the data is from 2022 and so we are seeing Covid more than anything else. Particularly given the lead time for a commercial license and the severe blow covid had to aviation. It’ll be interesting to see the numbers of the people that started during the post-COVID aviation boom.

Not sure what numbers WWFC was using for their 20%.

[bravado]

Do we know a forecast for passenger volumes out of the airport with Flair stuck in limbo? It seems like we've spent a lot of public money to support an investment that doesn't really benefit too many locals...

[SammyOES]

Do we know a forecast for passenger volumes out of the airport with Flair stuck in limbo? It seems like we've spent a lot of public money to support an investment that doesn't really benefit too many locals...

I couldn’t find good numbers for how much money the region supports the airport (particularly operating + capital combined) but this is the benefit:

Key findings of the report show that YKFs total 2023 annual operations generated:

$390 million in total economic output
1,360 jobs and $100 million in wages, including 660 jobs at YKF
$170 million in Gross Domestic Product (GDP)
$28 million in tax revenue (local, provincial and federal)

So not sure I’d say it doesn’t benefit too many locals.

[danbrotherston]

There are only 200-300 new commercial pilot licences issued per year at the moment, but the commercial pilot workforce is aging fast, so there will be a need for that to increase substantially. So, there is potential for WWFC to grow substantially to meet that demand.

Damn! Apparently I'm good at estimating...because I just pulled 250 out of my ass.

I mean, this is true of all industries though...it's crazy how untenable the status quo is starting to feel. And disturbing how little our mainstream, non-crazy political parties are willing to reckon with this.