Region of Waterloo International Airport - YKF

[SammyOES]

I think the Air Canada bus makes a lot of sense from CYKF. Particularly because AC treats it like a flight in a lot of their internal systems. But also because it’s a convenient place for the people likely to take this bus (people that want to drive to an easy to park location without fighting significant traffic).

But it’s an interesting thing because it probably makes it less likely to attract commercial flights. A bunch of the people that want to avoid driving to Pearson now get to avoid that and still keep access to the large selection of flights there.

I go back and forth, but I really don’t think CYKF is going to succeed for commercial traffic until a lot of things change: airport infrastructure, transit network, more congestion at Pearson, a new low cost carrier arrives, etc.

[plam]

I think the Air Canada bus makes a lot of sense from CYKF.  Particularly because AC treats it like a flight in a lot of their internal systems.  But also because it’s a convenient place for the people likely to take this bus (people that want to drive to an easy to park location without fighting significant traffic).

But it’s an interesting thing because it probably makes it less likely to attract commercial flights.  A bunch of the people that want to avoid driving to Pearson now get to avoid that and still keep access to the large selection of flights there.

I go back and forth, but I really don’t think CYKF is going to succeed for commercial traffic until a lot of things change: airport infrastructure, transit network, more congestion at Pearson, a new low cost carrier arrives, etc.

I find that parking at YKF is actually more pricey than various options for parking at Pearson (e.g. park4u), though there is the traffic and protection from misconnect benefits. Taking a taxi to YKF is a lot cheaper.

Yes to being less likely to attract commercial flights, though I can't see any way that AC would fly to all of YTZ, YYZ, YHM, and then YKF as well. And, for me, I have managed to avoid low cost carriers for the past while, though a lot of people do take them.

[danbrotherston]

I think the Air Canada bus makes a lot of sense from CYKF.  Particularly because AC treats it like a flight in a lot of their internal systems.  But also because it’s a convenient place for the people likely to take this bus (people that want to drive to an easy to park location without fighting significant traffic).

But it’s an interesting thing because it probably makes it less likely to attract commercial flights.  A bunch of the people that want to avoid driving to Pearson now get to avoid that and still keep access to the large selection of flights there.

I go back and forth, but I really don’t think CYKF is going to succeed for commercial traffic until a lot of things change: airport infrastructure, transit network, more congestion at Pearson, a new low cost carrier arrives, etc.

I find that parking at YKF is actually more pricey than various options for parking at Pearson (e.g. park4u), though there is the traffic and protection from misconnect benefits. Taking a taxi to YKF is a lot cheaper.

Yes to being less likely to attract commercial flights, though I can't see any way that AC would fly to all of YTZ, YYZ, YHM, and then YKF as well. And, for me, I have managed to avoid low cost carriers for the past while, though a lot of people do take them.

Yeah, AC does consider it a leg of their flight, but the benefits pretty much end there. There is no through connection of baggage, no through connection of security, no through connection of ticketing. Nothing.

There is zero reason that the bus should go to the airport. Yes, YKF is more convenient than Pearson, but it is less convenient than virtually every other location within the region of Waterloo. It's inaccessible by further transit, it's relatively expensive to park at, it's relatively remote and not that well connected to the road network. It's on the wrong side of the river.

The ONLY reason you'd go to the airport is to connect to other flights and there are zero destinations available through YKF that aren't available at Pearson.

AC routing the bus to the airport is just an incredibly obviously bad decision that only arises because it's an airline and is "airplane brained" in the same way most people are car brained.

But I agree with the general sentiment. The region continues to invest huge sums of money into YKF and has nothing to show for it.

[SammyOES]

AC routing the bus to the airport is just an incredibly obviously bad decision that only arises because it's an airline and is "airplane brained" in the same way most people are car brained.

I always love when people with basically no specific business or operational knowledge have this level of confidence that the people involved are completely incompetent.

[SammyOES]

Yes to being less likely to attract commercial flights, though I can't see any way that AC would fly to all of YTZ, YYZ, YHM, and then YKF as well. And, for me, I have managed to avoid low cost carriers for the past while, though a lot of people do take them.

It’s not just limiting commercial flights from AC. It also limits commercial flights from other airlines. People may choose an AC flight from Toronto with bus connection over something like a West Jet flight from CYKF.

[nms]

Taking a look at the "Looking Ahead" slide I see that the proposal is to move the terminal from the south-west corner of the airport to the north-east corner. Unless the adjacent "New Development Area" is going to include parking, the majority of airport parking remains on the south-west corner of the property, on the other side of the runways from the terminal. I realize that these are conceptual plans and very likely to change if and when the project ever goes ahead.

I also note that the plan inludes a potential Ottawa St Ion line, presumably terminating at the airport. I've lost track, where would an Ottawa St line fit on any big dreams for a bigger LRT system?

[danbrotherston]

AC routing the bus to the airport is just an incredibly obviously bad decision that only arises because it's an airline and is "airplane brained" in the same way most people are car brained.

I always love when people with basically no specific business or operational knowledge have this level of confidence that the people involved are completely incompetent.

I love it when people assume that the user experience doesn't matter.

I've ridden this bus. I'm aware of the user experience. I have a great deal of confidence in knowing where I actually want to go, and it isn't the airport.

[danbrotherston]

Yes to being less likely to attract commercial flights, though I can't see any way that AC would fly to all of YTZ, YYZ, YHM, and then YKF as well. And, for me, I have managed to avoid low cost carriers for the past while, though a lot of people do take them.

It’s not just limiting commercial flights from AC.  It also limits commercial flights from other airlines.  People may choose an AC flight from Toronto with bus connection over something like a West Jet flight from CYKF.

This is exactly the reason that AC offers this service. But it would be more compelling if it reached the city of Kitchener or Waterloo rather than just YKF.

[danbrotherston]

Taking a look at the "Looking Ahead" slide I see that the proposal is to move the terminal from the south-west corner of the airport to the north-east corner.  Unless the adjacent "New Development Area" is going to include parking, the majority of airport parking remains on the south-west corner of the property, on the other side of the runways from the terminal. I realize that these are conceptual plans and very likely to change if and when the project ever goes ahead.

I also note that the plan inludes a potential Ottawa St Ion line, presumably terminating at the airport.  I've lost track, where would an Ottawa St line fit on any big dreams for a bigger LRT system?

Firmly in the "pipe" arena at this point. And why not. It is equally likely that an LRT will be built to YKF in the "ahead" times that YKF will have the passenger volumes to justify an LRT connection.

[tomh009]

AC routing the bus to the airport is just an incredibly obviously bad decision that only arises because it's an airline and is "airplane brained" in the same way most people are car brained.

It may be a bad decision from a public good point of view, but AC is an airline, and is providing the bus service to YKF for its own business benefit (and, yes, the benefit of its YYZ-bound pax).

A public organization (such as GRT or GO) or even a bus-focused business would make different decisions, but that's not what AC is. As it is, it gives us one more option for getting to the airport, which works for some people and not for others. That's still not a bad thing.

(GO does now enable all-train travel from DTK to YYZ, which is better than the bus connections, but it's still not super quick. Last time I considered it I still ended up taking a taxi to YYZ.)

[SammyOES]

Taking a look at the "Looking Ahead" slide I see that the proposal is to move the terminal from the south-west corner of the airport to the north-east corner.  Unless the adjacent "New Development Area" is going to include parking, the majority of airport parking remains on the south-west corner of the property, on the other side of the runways from the terminal. I realize that these are conceptual plans and very likely to change if and when the project ever goes ahead.

I don’t think there’s anywhere else to put a new terminal other than in that quadrant. The existing terminal area is too built up and constrained by the runways and taxiways.

The current value parking is already shuttle serviced, so not that much worse to have drive further down fountain.

And it looks like just north of the new terminal they’ll have parking, so I expect a premium/value combination similar to what they have now.

This setup also leads itself well to separating the commercial airlines traffic from the GA/charter/aviation business side. Which is a nice benefit.

[danbrotherston]

AC routing the bus to the airport is just an incredibly obviously bad decision that only arises because it's an airline and is "airplane brained" in the same way most people are car brained.

It may be a bad decision from a public good point of view, but AC is an airline, and is providing the bus service to YKF for its own business benefit (and, yes, the benefit of its YYZ-bound pax).

A public organization (such as GRT or GO) or even a bus-focused business would make different decisions, but that's not what AC is. As it is, it gives us one more option for getting to the airport, which works for some people and not for others. That's still not a bad thing.

(GO does now enable all-train travel from DTK to YYZ, which is better than the bus connections, but it's still not super quick. Last time I considered it I still ended up taking a taxi to YYZ.)

So, there's nothing saying that the bus can't ALSO go to YKF if they want to enable connections. But as I pointed out, there are no routes into or out of YKF that aren't ALSO available at YYZ and connecting at YYZ will be 6-10 hours faster than flying to YKF getting the bus connection to YYZ and catching another flight. So right now, there are zero passengers making that connection, it _only_ serves passengers going to/from KW and catching a flight at YYZ, and it does so badly.

I guess it's a bad decision from public good, but only barely--in the way that any private company offering a product is a "public good". It's a private service available only to airline passengers. It's mainly a bad decision from a business point of view. The service would be better (and thus more valuable to passengers) if it was to the city and not the airport, and for broadly similar costs. They're not optimizing their value/cost metric that's a business metric for AC, not for the public.

And yes, AC is an airline. They're in the business of providing a transportation service. By the same argument they shouldn't be chartering a bus at all because they do airplanes, since they've chosen to provide a bus service for this connection there's no reason that they couldn't provide a better service by going to the city itself. There is no rule saying that Air Canada cannot charter a bus to downtown Kitchener, they are choosing the worse option of going to the airport, for what reasons, I do not know, I'm sure it's not malice.

As for GO, it is possibly an option now, but it's still something that isn't really a good option on weekends, and still takes far too long and far too much thinking (especially at the end of a trans-Atlantic flight) for me to consider anymore. Last time we took a taxi, and for 120 bucks for a family of 3, we're going to do the same thing next time.

[SammyOES]

It's mainly a bad decision from a business point of view. The service would be better (and thus more valuable to passengers) if it was to the city and not the airport, and for broadly similar costs. They're not optimizing their value/cost metric that's a business metric for AC, not for the public.

…they are choosing the worse option of going to the airport, for what reasons, I do not know, I'm sure it's not malice.

I know I need to go back to ignoring this stuff, but maybe, just maybe, the people running the business and understand all the costs and benefits of their market are making the right decision for their business for reasons that you don’t understand.

As you say, they could easily run buses to other locations. And yet they are not. It’s possible it’s a bunch of morons running the show who can’t figure out basic business decisions. Or maybe you’re like the blind men and the elephant and you just don’t have visibility into a bunch of operational and business considerations.

I love it when people assume that the user experience doesn't matter.

I've ridden this bus. I'm aware of the user experience. I have a great deal of confidence in knowing where I actually want to go, and it isn't the airport.

The fact that you think your personal experience with the user experience is enough for you to evaluate the overall business decision is exactly the problem.

You are not their whole market (and from what I’ve seen here of your lifestyle and travel habits - you are very much not their target market). And your experience is not the only metric that matters.

[creative]

I’m taking the bus in two weeks. A quick Uber to the airport is fine with me. I’m not hauling my luggage onto a city bus to get down to the train station to catch the AC bus. My guess is that most people would do the same or ask a friend or family member for a ride. Easy and convenient drop off and pickup without having to deal with congestion at the train station. Maybe once the new train terminal is built but this seems the most logical way to go.

[ZEBuilder]

I also note that the plan inludes a potential Ottawa St Ion line, presumably terminating at the airport.  I've lost track, where would an Ottawa St line fit on any big dreams for a bigger LRT system?

An LRT along Ottawa from YKF to Sunrise Centre was conceptualized in ROPA 6, obviously ROPA 6 is no longer a governing document thanks to the Province, however the Cities are still incorporating ROPA 6 into their updated Official Plans. Given this the City of Kitchener is applying the same SGA zones to Ottawa St as they have already done in the PMTSAs through Growing Together. There's various other policies that are being added to Ottawa St because of ROPA 6 that will allow it to develop over time into a corridor that can have LRT, say good bye to drive-thrus and similar car oriented infrastructure, existing buildings will of course be grandfathered in however anything new must abide by the new rules once they are approved.

For everyone who wants Victoria it won't happen, there's other public policy documents including Provincial ones (this isn't Highway 7 related either) which effectively inhibits an LRT type development along Victoria for a long time.