General Road and Highway Discussion

[NotStan]

How long before they announce widening from Townline Rd to Hwy 25?

[welltoldtales]

Okay, anyone else frustrated by that Record article? I mean when people talk LRT it's plastered everywhere what the cost is. I don't see any description of cost for this road expansion. Do we know how much they are talking about?

[tomh009]

Okay, anyone else frustrated by that Record article? I mean when people talk LRT it's plastered everywhere what the cost is. I don't see any description of cost for this road expansion. Do we know how much they are talking about?

$2M per lane-km is probably in the ballpark, so that's probably somewhere around $200M for 18 km of widening.  Not comparable to the LRT contract, of course, as this is just the up-front operation cost.

[plam]

Gotta get us some induced demand.

What do you think should be done, if anything?

To be fair, the plan also seems to include HOV lanes, which is somewhat helpful. I'd like to see a range of options beyond single-occupant commuting.

HOV lanes enable slugging: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slugging

They're also good when buses can take them, e.g. GO transit buses.

And there's always high-frequency trains which can use more of.

[SammyOES2]

Ok, I agree with all of that (and I think a lot of it is in the works too).

I just see the "induced demand" comments and don't know if people are complaining about the inevitable downside of something that should still be done, or if they are complaining that they don't think the thing should be done at all.

[Markster]

This expansion will be, for the next 10 years, a godsend to Mississauga.
It will be more than enough capacity to get through Mississauga at rush hour.

However, for those continuing through in the morning (inbound) commute, it will mean that cars get to the backup at the 427 sooner. That backup, on the 401 next to Pearson, will become noticeably larger. Anyone whose commute uses that section of the 401 but not the widened part, will see more, slower traffic than before, since the 401 will be able to pipe more in to the existing bottlenecks.

[Pheidippides]

Is there a map with the timelines for each section from here to T-O?

[danbrotherston]

Ok, I agree with all of that (and I think a lot of it is in the works too).

I just see the "induced demand" comments and don't know if people are complaining about the inevitable downside of something that should still be done, or if they are complaining that they don't think the thing should be done at all.

"Should still be done".   I imagine not everyone would agree with you on that.  To play devils advocate, there are a lot of other things that could be done instead, better local and regional transit being the most obvious one, and other forms of demand management.  

Yes, we cannot tomorrow turn off the sprawl that has created this problem, but to suggest the only way to respond is by widening highways is the very thinking that got us here in the first place.

[SammyOES2]

Dan, that was my point. I don't know if people think the thing should be done or not. And literally nobody is suggesting that the only way to respond is by widening highways.

[jamincan]

This expansion will be, for the next 10 years, a godsend to Mississauga.
It will be more than enough capacity to get through Mississauga at rush hour.

However, for those continuing through in the morning (inbound) commute, it will mean that cars get to the backup at the 427 sooner.  That backup, on the 401 next to Pearson, will become noticeably larger.  Anyone whose commute uses that section of the 401 but not the widened part, will see more, slower traffic than before, since the 401 will be able to pipe more in to the existing bottlenecks.

I'd argue that the 6-lane section through Mississauga is actually the larger and more severe bottleneck. That section (between Mavis and Mississauga Road) is regularly backed up well after the rest of the GTA highways are moving well again, even as late as 11am sometimes.

[Markster]

That section through Mississauga is currently being widened.
I'm referring to the time when it is 10+ lanes continuous from 403 to Milton.

[timio]

Prior to the Hurontario -> 410 opening, the backup went from 410 > Mississauga Rd. After opening, it went form Mavis > Winston Churchill. The 401 doesn't get really busy to the point of slowdowns until Milton travelling EB, so there is an argument that could say it will solve all life's problems and then some. I don't agree with that argument, but you can see how people might reach that conclusion.

[danbrotherston]

Dan, that was my point.  I don't know if people think the thing should be done or not.  And literally nobody is suggesting that the only way to respond is by widening highways.

Fair enough, I misread your comment.

Of course, I certainly disagree that "literally nobody" is suggesting that the only way to respond is by widening highways.  That's a fairly common belief I think.

[p2ee]

How long before they announce widening from Townline Rd to Hwy 25?

Probably not any time soon.  I think they want to make it 5+ lanes from highway 8 to Ajax by 2030 (that doesn't include any widening that may happen eastwards in Durham region), but the Townline Rd to RR 25 flows the best on that entire section.  I wouldn't expect the construction to start on that section any time before 2025.  The one exception is highway 6 south to highway 6 north (i.e. 299 to 295).    Construction is scheduled to begin 2020-2022 there.

[jamincan]

What I normally see right now is that heavy congestion starts somewhere between Hwy 25 and James Snow Pkwy (varying depending on the day and time), continues until after the on-ramps from Trafalgar, and then moves well from there to Winston Churchill where it typically starts up again at the Winston Churchill ramps (I get off on Winston Churchill thankfully). Later in the morning it eases up and the backup usually doesn't really start until Mississauga Road, continuing to the split.

It seems to me that most of the backup is due to merging traffic more than overall volume. You can definitely notice that the slowdowns seem to occur around interchanges, and where there isn't any merging traffic (Trafalgar to Winston Churchill, is the best example), traffic moves remarkably well despite the fact that it was at a standstill just a short distance back. This is one reason why I can't see widening being necessary between Milton and Guelph, even in the long term. The distance between Guelph Line and Hwy 6 is just so long that traffic should move well even with high volume.