ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit

[ijmorlan]

I'm curious, how do you propose that they could have delivered completed trains to the region any earlier when Metrolinx refused to sign off on a spec once the Transit City projects for which the original order was placed were all cancelled or delayed?

Even after they had a spec they could build and deliver to in mid-2016, the Communications Based Train Control signalling system remained unspecified, hence the hole in the dashboard we all witnessed at the open houses.  I can only assume that that gap has been closed now, but it would only have happened very recently.

Unfortunately Bombardier can't blame Metrolinx as they are still a major customer of theirs, and the region can't blame Metrolinx as they still want Phase 2 funding, so the only party that gets publicly named and shamed is Bombardier.  Are they blameless?  I'm sure not, but I do feel sorry for them for getting 100% of the blame in the public press / mindset while only being partially responsible for the overall delays.

This should be a pinned post - thank you for explaining this so well Kevin!

Thanks both of you for this. Assuming this is correct, I think I understand better what is really happening, and maybe why the judge wasn’t so keen on Metrolinx’ position in the Bombardier lawsuit: yes, Bombardier flubbed the manufacturing in Thunder Bay, but if they hadn’t we would just have had vehicles in 2016 with no CBTC components. In other words, it was very lucky for somebody at Metrolinx that Bombardier messed up initially, because otherwise it would have been obvious that Metrolinx had dropped the ball.

It would be interesting to know what would have happened if Sheppard East hadn’t been cancelled/postponed/sent to the phantom zone (I mean seriously, it’s been each of those at various times; “cancelled” by Rob Ford, postponed by City Council and the Province, and now it’s in the phantom zone where theoretically it’s happening as soon as Finch is built but most people, including me, believe it will not be built in the foreseeable future). It was supposed to begin construction in 2011 I believe and open in something like 2013 or 2014. Would it have opened late? Would Metrolinx have figured out their CBTC system? Would Bombardier have figured out how to manufacture the vehicles promptly?

Really more of this should be public. Instead of just “The LRT system is late” it should be “it’s done, but we’re waiting for the CBTC systems” or whatever.

[Bob_McBob]

Waterloo Region informs Bombardier it intends to sue for losses due to late LRT vehicles

An email from Councillor Tom Galloway to 570 NEWS says, quote, “At the end of the day we intend to sue Bombardier for all losses over and above the penalties. They have been so informed.”

[NotStan]

Waterloo Region informs Bombardier it intends to sue for losses due to late LRT vehicles

An email from Councillor Tom Galloway to 570 NEWS says, quote, “At the end of the day we intend to sue Bombardier for all losses over and above the penalties. They have been so informed.”

Galloway tells the Mike Farwell Show, Bombardier is the exclusive cause of the delay in service.

[trainspotter139]

Waterloo Region informs Bombardier it intends to sue for losses due to late LRT vehicles

Galloway tells the Mike Farwell Show, Bombardier is the exclusive cause of the delay in service.

which is absolute hogwash. Had the region not delayed their delivery, we would likely have them all by now, AND Bombardier would have been able to do all the testing and integrations here and train mechanics and operators, all in one go.

[jeffster]

Galloway tells the Mike Farwell Show, Bombardier is the exclusive cause of the delay in service.

which is absolute hogwash. Had the region not delayed their delivery, we would likely have them all by now, AND Bombardier would have been able to do all the testing and integrations here and train mechanics and operators, all in one go.

Do we have any proof of this?

Proof, other than the truthful hyperbole that the politicians continue to feed us up until this time.

[Bob_McBob]

Bombardier says it's 'doing everything' to finish Waterloo region's LRT order

So far, only four light rail vehicles have been delivered to Waterloo region. Prud'Homme confirmed that one vehicle is in transit, two are ready to ship, three are being tested and four are near completion.

[Canard]

I think a few of us here are in a tough situation. We can’t publicly reveal our sources, but know that the statement made by the Region is untrue, damaging, and unfair.

This is going to get very dirty, I think, which is really sad.

[Viewfromthe42]

It's possibly another political save-face. If the assertions are true that Metrolinx is to blame for much of the delay, but can't realistically or publicly be blamed, then politicians with an upcoming election might be doing the old punt-to-OMB move: do something they know will cost money and fail, but will give them a better image to present to the public.

Right now, there are a few options:
1) Blame Bombardier
2) Blame Metrolinx
3) Don't blame anyone

Consequences to the region/council could be:
1) Nothing
2) The province doesn't support the region as willingly on initiatives
3) The public is inclined to turf "do-nothing, pushover" politicians (who were the do-LRT politicians many of us appreciate), and turf "wasteful, failed" phase 2

I'm taking some leaps. But if these are the three consequential scenarios, I can understand the motivation.

[Persandals]

I think a few of us here are in a tough situation. We can’t publicly reveal our sources, but know that the statement made by the Region is untrue, damaging, and unfair.

This is going to get very dirty, I think, which is really sad.

Yes the statement could be partially untrue, but calling Bombardier out is definitely not unfair. Bombardier continues to be an absolute joke of a company. Does the region have its own issues? Yes, but at the end of the day this is a train (and plane) company that struggles to build trains (and planes), and does not deserve the support you give it.

[tomh009]

... at the end of the day this is a train (and plane) company that struggles to build trains (and planes), and does not deserve the support you give it.

At least on the aviation side, BBD products (C-series commercial jets and Global business jets) are highly regarded. Yes, it took them longer to build them that planned, but it happens to the best companies, too (ask Boeing about the 787 or Airbus about the A380).

Back to our LRT system: there is no doubt the trains are delayed. But BBD has had trains waiting at Kingston for months now, and we only recently started accepting them again. And Grandlinq still keeps making repairs to the track (and there is no testing going on).

So while Galloway's official statement may be that it's 100% Bombardier, I will choose to believe my own eyes and own brain, and draw my own conclusions.

[Pheidippides]

Bombardier could probably mount a pretty good defense that GrandLinq should share in some of the responsibility.

Speaking of which, there seems to be more safety cones and signs accumulating at King and Union, this time on the south side. I wonder if more repairs are schedule when the ice melts.

[bgb_ca]

506 was reported in Belleville on Facebook, meaning it's finally on the move.

[sevenman]

Actually, pretty much all their fault.

I'm curious, how do you propose that they could have delivered completed trains to the region any earlier when Metrolinx refused to sign off on a spec once the Transit City projects for which the original order was placed were all cancelled or delayed?

Even after they had a spec they could build and deliver to in mid-2016, the Communications Based Train Control signalling system remained unspecified, hence the hole in the dashboard we all witnessed at the open houses.  I can only assume that that gap has been closed now, but it would only have happened very recently.

Unfortunately Bombardier can't blame Metrolinx as they are still a major customer of theirs, and the region can't blame Metrolinx as they still want Phase 2 funding, so the only party that gets publicly named and shamed is Bombardier.  Are they blameless?  I'm sure not, but I do feel sorry for them for getting 100% of the blame in the public press / mindset while only being partially responsible for the overall delays.

Hi Kevin,

  I'm not sure, but why would Metrolinx go to court to cancel an order/contract with Bombardier if the delay in the order was partially Metrolinx's fault?  Doesn't make sense.

  The train that was sent to the open house was sent for p.r. purposes which was great but there were over 1500 deficiencies on that vehicle.  In other words, it was missing a whole lot more than the Communications Based Train Control signalling system.  That vehicle was never going to stay.

On your third paragraph, I think the "major customer" label went out the window when Metrolinx tried to cancel a $700 million dollar contract.  
  Additionally, Metrolinx has ZERO to do with any funding for anything going on in the ROW so they're not worried about blame.  Any funding for Phase 2, if it comes, will come directly from the provincial government of the day and certainly won't require Metrolinx's approval.  Metrolinx has no involvement outside the GTA.  They oversee an area from Hamilton to Oshawa to Barrie.  That's it.  

"The only party that gets publicly named and shamed is Bombardier".  That's because there's no one left.     

Last September (2017), Tom Galloway told us that all trains were "either complete or in production and have vehicles to us, at least be assembled, by the end of this year."
Who do you think gave him that information, Metrolinx?!  Bombardier clearly lied or misled Tom.

[Viewfromthe42]

Sevenman, I believe the reason, previously brought up, was a bit of a hail mary by Metrolinx. They don't want to blame themselves or seem like they aren't doing anything, but critically, the initial order was based on greater numbers of LRT systems. With all of the LRT cancellations in Toronto, the TTC didn't have need for all those vehicles, and so the side deal made to reduce the total ordered quantity allowed them to get what they really wanted. All that if my memory serves me.

Metrolinx being a provincial agency, and the province being the main partner you have to get in order to get funding support (as we received for phase 1) very much makes them an important good relationship to keep, not least of which because when we bought into their much larger order, we got vehicle costs much lower than we otherwise would have, I believe I remember it being a savings of 7-8 figures per vehicle.

[Canard]

Good news out of Regional Council tonight.

Sean Strickland, Berry V., and Tom all suggested that more frequent updates be made to the public (at worst monthly) on the progress of all the LRV's.

Tom reminded everyone that even once the vehicles get here, it's not a 100% sure thing - GrandLinq has to pull through on their end.

Thomas explained the complexity of all the various communications equipment that needs to be fitted to the trains.

It was also revealed that while all the trains might be complete and fitted with this equipment by June... that doesn't mean they're all here. So... there's that.