St. Patrick's celebrations

[ijmorlan]

The universities will definitely try to take a hands off, we're not responsible, approach to this.  So what do you do, just quadruple the fines issued to party goers?

Start arresting people who are occupying the street. Start early in the day patrolling up and down the street and arrest anybody who violates the right-of-way of the patrol car.

Not sure how effective this would really be.

I do remember years ago when this was previously an issue one year the police showed up early in the day. I don’t know exactly what their orders were but I assume they started ticketing offences early in the day to try to keep it under control from the beginning.

I wonder how the $half-million compares to costs for other events? I have no idea. Sounds awfully expensive for one party.

[Spokes]

I wonder how Kingston did it. I remember homecoming at Queens used to be THE party. Then a riot broke out and the university said, we're done with this, it's over. So how did they do it?

[timc]

I wonder how Kingston did it.  I remember homecoming at Queens used to be THE party.  Then a riot broke out and the university said, we're done with this, it's over.  So how did they do it?

It looks like homecoming is alive and well at Queen's.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4577413/queen...eet-party/

[Spokes]

I thought they cancelled it for a couple years around 2007-10 ish?

[urbd]

The universities will definitely try to take a hands off, we're not responsible, approach to this.  So what do you do, just quadruple the fines issued to party goers?

Start arresting people who are occupying the street. Start early in the day patrolling up and down the street and arrest anybody who violates the right-of-way of the patrol car.

Not sure how effective this would really be.

I do remember years ago when this was previously an issue one year the police showed up early in the day. I don’t know exactly what their orders were but I assume they started ticketing offences early in the day to try to keep it under control from the beginning.

I wonder how the $half-million compares to costs for other events? I have no idea. Sounds awfully expensive for one party.

What? no way. Do you want to live in a police state? Plus this would likely cost so much more money and resources than just having police walking around the party and supervising.

As a taxpayer, i'm not pissed off at all. Things cost money, all services do. This is a student town and young people have the right to have fun. Go to any university town and parties like this happen, some bigger some smaller. In fact, this is pretty ideal as Ezra's residents are 100% students, it's right next to campus, in an easy location for services/emergency/etc. They just need to make it more official, have vendors and make money off it somehow. This is a big event that creates a community spirit for the students and will make them look back and have fun/good memories about their time in Waterloo.

[danbrotherston]

This is an overreaction from the police, it's not the students fault if everyone refuses to acknowledge the party and brings in Peel region riot police to try and enforce that non-existence.

I'm pissed too, but not at the students, for the adults who are hateful and angry in response to students existing.

I saw this as someone who lives through more than one downtown festival which I don't enjoy or participate in, but don't begrudge the existence of.

[tomh009]

This is an overreaction from the police, it's not the students fault if everyone refuses to acknowledge the party and brings in Peel region riot police to try and enforce that non-existence.

I'm pissed too, but not at the students, for the adults who are hateful and angry in response to students existing.

I saw this as someone who lives through more than one downtown festival which I don't enjoy or participate in, but don't begrudge the existence of.

While many (most?) festivals are subsidized by the cities, I think there are some key differences. The biggest among those is that the festivals are planned, organized and supervised so as to conform to the laws and bylaws, and minimize the disruption to the neighbours. As the street parties are not really planned, none of that happens. As a result, the police presence is far bigger than at, say, the blues festival.

If it's 15,000 students participating and $500,000 in costs, that works out to about $33 per participant. I have no data on how that compares to other festivals, but it does seem fairly high.

But I really don't see this as (at least most) people being hateful and angry about students' existence. Their behaviour could be better in this case, though.

What's your solution, Dan? Skip the police presence altogether and let happen what will happen?

[danbrotherston]

This is an overreaction from the police, it's not the students fault if everyone refuses to acknowledge the party and brings in Peel region riot police to try and enforce that non-existence.

I'm pissed too, but not at the students, for the adults who are hateful and angry in response to students existing.

I saw this as someone who lives through more than one downtown festival which I don't enjoy or participate in, but don't begrudge the existence of.

While many (most?) festivals are subsidized by the cities, I think there are some key differences. The biggest among those is that the festivals are planned, organized and supervised so as to conform to the laws and bylaws, and minimize the disruption to the neighbours. As the street parties are not really planned, none of that happens. As a result, the police presence is far bigger than at, say, the blues festival.

If it's 15,000 students participating and $500,000 in costs, that works out to about $33 per participant. I have no data on how that compares to other festivals, but it does seem fairly high.

But I really don't see this as (at least most) people being hateful and angry about students' existence. Their behaviour could be better in this case, though.

What's your solution, Dan? Skip the police presence altogether and let happen what will happen?

You give the solution in your comment.  The City/UW/WLU instead of wasting 500,000 dollars of tax dollars hiring out of region police to come and try and suppress the event, the city should organize an actual event.

[tomh009]

You give the solution in your comment.  The City/UW/WLU instead of wasting 500,000 dollars of tax dollars hiring out of region police to come and try and suppress the event, the city should organize an actual event.

All right, I'm on board with that. Whether it can actually be made to happen though ...

[danbrotherston]

You give the solution in your comment.  The City/UW/WLU instead of wasting 500,000 dollars of tax dollars hiring out of region police to come and try and suppress the event, the city should organize an actual event.

All right, I'm on board with that. Whether it can actually be made to happen though ...

If you mean practically, I think it can, while students like the St. Patty's day madness, if an event was well designed to accommodate the things students want to do, they'd probably adapt quickly.

If you mean politically, I have very little hope, there's far more political motivation to try (and probably fail) to shut the party down instead--this is what drives me crazy, because this drives a lot of the cost, and then people get angry at the students, when the actual injuries/problems are comparable to any similar event.  In fact, this attitude makes it more difficult to practically implement it, because it increases animosity.  That being said, students are easy, they only have a maximum 4 year memory.

[tomh009]

The latter: I'm not optimistic about the city taking this on, and I think the universities participating would be even less likely.

[danbrotherston]

Yeah, that's more or less my understanding.

I don't think the city will ever successfully shut it down, without declaring martial law or something equally unconstitutional.

I suspect it will continue to be an excessively expensive opportunity to generate a great deal of hate on students, and a source of frustration and unhappiness for myself for a long time.

[ijmorlan]

Start arresting people who are occupying the street. Start early in the day patrolling up and down the street and arrest anybody who violates the right-of-way of the patrol car.

Not sure how effective this would really be.

I do remember years ago when this was previously an issue one year the police showed up early in the day. I don’t know exactly what their orders were but I assume they started ticketing offences early in the day to try to keep it under control from the beginning.

I wonder how the $half-million compares to costs for other events? I have no idea. Sounds awfully expensive for one party.

What? no way. Do you want to live in a police state? Plus this would likely cost so much more money and resources than just having police walking around the party and supervising.

Well, on the one hand, I don’t think it’s really heading in the direction of a police state to insist that a particular road not be obstructed by pedestrians. But on the other hand, I agree it would be very expensive, and even though I speculated about how to shut down the party entirely, I’m not really convinced that is necessary or even desireable. How bad is the party any way? To what extent is the policing cost essentially optional? Presumably we wouldn’t have such a party with no police supervision at all, but did they really need to spend $500,000 on it? Again, I don’t know. I don’t actually envy the chief at all: if he doesn’t do enough and a riot breaks out, he gets blamed. If he spends too much or is too heavy-handed, he gets blamed. It’s not at all obvious to me what he should do.

[danbrotherston]

What? no way. Do you want to live in a police state? Plus this would likely cost so much more money and resources than just having police walking around the party and supervising.

Well, on the one hand, I don’t think it’s really heading in the direction of a police state to insist that a particular road not be obstructed by pedestrians. But on the other hand, I agree it would be very expensive, and even though I speculated about how to shut down the party entirely, I’m not really convinced that is necessary or even desireable. How bad is the party any way? To what extent is the policing cost essentially optional? Presumably we wouldn’t have such a party with no police supervision at all, but did they really need to spend $500,000 on it? Again, I don’t know. I don’t actually envy the chief at all: if he doesn’t do enough and a riot breaks out, he gets blamed. If he spends too much or is too heavy-handed, he gets blamed. It’s not at all obvious to me what he should do.

For the record, the police are the ones who shut the road down, they did so, correctly, for public safety, because the crowds on the sidewalk were so large.

My opinion is that the vast majority of the cost is totally unnecessary, they called in Peel Regional riot police, but this event was no more substantial or out of hand than many other big festivals in the city--especially those that involve consumption that are handled entirely in house.

Shutting the party down isn't feasible, at a fundamental level, we have the right to free assembly, you can attempt to harass the party into non-existence, like we often see with protesters, but fundamentally, the city cannot say, "no, you cannot assemble here peacefully" without violating some very fundamental rights.

[Spokes]

While many (most?) festivals are subsidized by the cities, I think there are some key differences. The biggest among those is that the festivals are planned, organized and supervised so as to conform to the laws and bylaws, and minimize the disruption to the neighbours. As the street parties are not really planned, none of that happens. As a result, the police presence is far bigger than at, say, the blues festival.

If it's 15,000 students participating and $500,000 in costs, that works out to about $33 per participant. I have no data on how that compares to other festivals, but it does seem fairly high.

But I really don't see this as (at least most) people being hateful and angry about students' existence. Their behaviour could be better in this case, though.

What's your solution, Dan? Skip the police presence altogether and let happen what will happen?

You give the solution in your comment.  The City/UW/WLU instead of wasting 500,000 dollars of tax dollars hiring out of region police to come and try and suppress the event, the city should organize an actual event.

Didn't they try that with St Patrick's day a couple years ago?