ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit

[danbrotherston]

A report of a youth cyclist injured (and fortunately not too seriously or fatally, as would be entirely possible in this situation) as a result of the incompetent engineering of the LRT tracks at Moore and King:

https://www.reddit.com/r/kitchener/comme..._accident/

It makes me sad, how can we not hold these engineers responsible for the harm they create. Why does our council not care.

[creative]

Out of curiosity, how should have this been designed? I’m not a civil engineer or have any experience designing LRT systems so I’m just asking!

[danbrotherston]

Out of curiosity, how should have this been designed? I’m not a civil engineer or have any experience designing LRT systems so I’m just asking!

I am not a civil engineer either, but I know of a number different options.

One would be to use a product to fill in the flangeway, there are a few rubber products, which will be depressed by the weight of the LRV, but which fill the flangeway so that a bicycle wheel cannot get stuck in it.

Another would be to design cycling into the roadway. This was already considered in the original design the region tendered, where cyclists are supposed to divert onto a MUT along King St. from Moore to Victoria. This probably would have worked okay, but the engineers in charge of detailed design and implementation were utterly incompetent, the sidewalk is too narrow to be a MUT, there is no signage, the entrance is blocked by a pole, there is no affordance to suggest to any cyclist that they should be using it. As a result the design does not function for cyclists, and there have been a number of injuries reported.

Honestly, I'm not an engineer, this is a hobby for me at best, so I shouldn't be better at it than our regional engineers and regional contractors. And I'm not saying I know all the implications of changes that these design changes would incur, but what is clear is that designing this to be safe for cyclists was not a priority.

[dtkvictim]

Out of curiosity, how should have this been designed? I’m not a civil engineer or have any experience designing LRT systems so I’m just asking!

Just taking wild guesses here (I'm sure engineers should know of better solutions), but either don't have the tracks switch from the side to the center (which basically requires crossing the tracks a small angle), or have dedicated cycling lanes or a MUT outside of the tracks, and never have them cross?

On the Weber street underpass the sidewalk (perhaps just on the south side?) is marked as a shared pathway, so something similar could have been done here. However, I still think that's a really poor solution. On Weber the shared pathway is only for 2 blocks, meaning you have to merge back on to the road. You also get yelled at by both pedestrians and cars for whichever option you choose to take...

[danbrotherston]

Out of curiosity, how should have this been designed? I’m not a civil engineer or have any experience designing LRT systems so I’m just asking!

Just taking wild guesses here (I'm sure engineers should know of better solutions), but either don't have the tracks switch from the side to the center (which basically requires crossing the tracks a small angle), or have dedicated cycling lanes or a MUT outside of the tracks, and never have them cross?

On the Weber street underpass the sidewalk (perhaps just on the south side?) is marked as a shared pathway, so something similar could have been done here. However, I still think that's a really poor solution. On Weber the shared pathway is only for 2 blocks, meaning you have to merge back on to the road. You also get yelled at by both pedestrians and cars for whichever option you choose to take...

The Weber design is indicative of the regional issues...it took years to get signs put up, and the engineers who designed it had this exact conversation:

"This says we need a MUT, what's a MUT?"

"It's like a wide sidewalk I think."

"Wide sidewalk it is."

To be fair, it continues for more than two blocks, it's meant to connect the Spur Line Trail to Water St.

[creative]

As I see this is in quotes, I assume this was the actual conversation!

[danbrotherston]

As I see this is in quotes, I assume this was the actual conversation!

It's clear from context that I am being flippant. But as you asked a serious question, I gave you a serious answer on page 1065.

[creative]

I’m just trying to educate myself as to how all of these incompetent civil engineers manage to get their degrees! I turn on my tap and clean water Comes out. I flush my toilet and everything magically goes away. We just experienced a major rain storm and the water magically went somewhere. Electricity somehow is delivered to my house.

[danbrotherston]

I’m just trying to educate myself as to how all of these incompetent civil engineers manage to get their degrees! I turn on my tap and clean water Comes out. I flush my toilet and everything magically goes away. We just experienced a major rain storm and the water magically went somewhere. Electricity somehow is delivered to my house.

*sigh*...I see, so when you said you were just asking, you weren't asking, you were saying. And now you are playing stupid.

Congrats on being an unhelpful toxic person.

[creative]

You are entitled to your opinion of how things are built but please stop calling these professionally trained engineers incompetent and don’t ever call me stupid again!

[danbrotherston]

You are entitled to your opinion of how things are built but please stop calling these professionally trained engineers incompetent and don’t ever call me stupid again!

I didn’t call you stupid, I said you were playing stupid, because you are pretending to not understand that water and sewage engineering is different from designing cycling infra on roads, and that a person can be competent at one, and not the other.

As for my opinion, I am certainly entitled to an opinion about someone’s technical competence after seeing them act incompetently time after time after time.  I have backed up my opinion very carefully.  I do not take it lightly, even if I occasionally use flippancy to cover my frustration.

[tomh009]

Out of curiosity, how should have this been designed? I’m not a civil engineer or have any experience designing LRT systems so I’m just asking!

I am not a civil engineer either, but I know of a number different options.

One would be to use a product to fill in the flangeway, there are a few rubber products, which will be depressed by the weight of the LRV, but which fill the flangeway so that a bicycle wheel cannot get stuck in it.

Assuming this is a good solution, this seems simple, and could be retrofitted in after the fact (ie now). And it sounds like the cost would not be high. Is that correct? Might you have link to such a product?

[danbrotherston]

I am not a civil engineer either, but I know of a number different options.

One would be to use a product to fill in the flangeway, there are a few rubber products, which will be depressed by the weight of the LRV, but which fill the flangeway so that a bicycle wheel cannot get stuck in it.

Assuming this is a good solution, this seems simple, and could be retrofitted in after the fact (ie now). And it sounds like the cost would not be high. Is that correct? Might you have link to such a product?

Unfortunately, I cannot find the site I (and others) sent to the regional engineers years ago. Here's an article mentioning these tramway flanges used in Zurich https://www.streetfilms.org/cyclists-vs-...in-zurich/ , but it is not a link to an english site.

Unfortunately, as I understand it, the price would be very high, it needs to be embedded in the track, it basically replaces the existing embedded rubber...I'll call it a gasket...surrounding the track, as a result, the products I am aware of would require ripping up all the concrete around the tracks...this would be rather expensive. It's possible a different product is available or could be developed to retrofit into the flangeway but I am not aware of any such product.

The best I think could be reasonably accomplished would be something like the top right of page 13 on this document: https://altaplanning.com/wp-content/uplo...o_ALTA.pdf

That could be accomplished with paint and a sign, if we were willing to rework some surface concrete that could be even better.  It's not ideal, the sidewalk is poorly suited as a MUT, it's too narrow, and the intersection is terrible. But that ship has sailed, we are stuck with that unfortunate poor design.  But with a little paint and a sign it could be miles better.  But I don't see that ever happening.  I can't even get the regional staff to put a freaking bag on this bullshit pedestrian signal https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.453664,-8...312!8i6656 which protects peds from all the many drivers driving through the bloody retaining wall.  They just do not care one iota.  And it seems most of our council does not either.

[dtkvictim]

Just taking wild guesses here (I'm sure engineers should know of better solutions), but either don't have the tracks switch from the side to the center (which basically requires crossing the tracks a small angle), or have dedicated cycling lanes or a MUT outside of the tracks, and never have them cross?

On the Weber street underpass the sidewalk (perhaps just on the south side?) is marked as a shared pathway, so something similar could have been done here. However, I still think that's a really poor solution. On Weber the shared pathway is only for 2 blocks, meaning you have to merge back on to the road. You also get yelled at by both pedestrians and cars for whichever option you choose to take...

The Weber design is indicative of the regional issues...it took years to get signs put up, and the engineers who designed it had this exact conversation:

"This says we need a MUT, what's a MUT?"

"It's like a wide sidewalk I think."

"Wide sidewalk it is."

To be fair, it continues for more than two blocks, it's meant to connect the Spur Line Trail to Water St.

Oh, I didn't realize it was more than two blocks, because there is no visual indication it's not just a sidewalk beyond that point (there's a sign, but the sidewalk design just looks like a sidewalk). Looking at Google maps now... I was also never certain if only the South/West side was a MUT, or both sides, since they look the same. Based on the signs, I'm assuming just the South/West side is. If you are a cyclist taking Weber to Waterloo, what's the proper etiquette for

1. Getting from Weber to the MUT at Water? Do you make a left turn onto the sidewalk, or dismount on the right side and cross as a pedestrian twice?
   
2. Crossing the signalized intersections, do you have to dismount when it's a MUT?
   

I never wanted to bother with Weber when cycling to work, so I took Duke for most of it. Although, the Duke and Victoria light doesn't change for cyclists, so I eventually gave up and just started walking to work...

[danbrotherston]

The Weber design is indicative of the regional issues...it took years to get signs put up, and the engineers who designed it had this exact conversation:

"This says we need a MUT, what's a MUT?"

"It's like a wide sidewalk I think."

"Wide sidewalk it is."

To be fair, it continues for more than two blocks, it's meant to connect the Spur Line Trail to Water St.

Oh, I didn't realize it was more than two blocks, because there is no visual indication it's not just a sidewalk beyond that point (there's a sign, but the sidewalk design just looks like a sidewalk). Looking at Google maps now... I was also never certain if only the South/West side was a MUT, or both sides, since they look the same. Based on the signs, I'm assuming just the South/West side is. If you are a cyclist taking Weber to Waterloo, what's the proper etiquette for

1. Getting from Weber to the MUT at Water? Do you make a left turn onto the sidewalk, or dismount on the right side and cross as a pedestrian twice?
   
2. Crossing the signalized intersections, do you have to dismount when it's a MUT?
   

I never wanted to bother with Weber when cycling to work, so I took Duke for most of it. Although, the Duke and Victoria light doesn't change for cyclists, so I eventually gave up and just started walking to work...

Yup...it's pretty terrible.

Generally when I bike, I will come up Water, turn left into the parking lot (I suspect this is less surprising to drivers than trying to make a left turn onto the sidewalk, and it saves some time). I merge onto the MUT/sidewalk and proceed on the west side of Weber. I won't stay publicly whether I dismount to cross, but sufficies to say that I find it ridiculous that the regional engineers did not provide for a crossing for the users of the MUT, and that I don't believe dismounting improves safety, if drivers are going to turn without looking, I don't believe it matters whether you are on a bike or not, the Victoria St. corner is so poorly designed for non-motor vehicle users anyway.

It is sure is a shame that you were forced by the poor infrastructure in the region to give up cycling to work .