GO Transit

[jeffster]

The plans also need to work around 10 bridges and overpasses. Only two of those will need special attention, including the Margaret Avenue bridge. Metrolinx said it may need to lower the track and make other modifications at that bridge.

I guess electrification wasn't considered when they rebuilt the Margaret Ave bridge!

That said, this is good news, even if partial electrification is less than ideal.

That was one of my first thoughts too. We just finished the bridge not long ago. I wonder what all needs to be done to make it GO worthy?

[clasher]

I thought the whole freight bypass thing the Ford gov't cancelled was supposed to make it easier to electrify the whole line?

Nope. Not at all. Only supposedly less expensive to implement #2WADGO. It actually makes it harder to do it as electrified rail because of continuing to share tracks with CN.

Another supposed reason was because it would let them do it sooner than what the Liberals promised, but no timelines coming out of Metrolinx have change from the Wynne government promises.

Well dang. I guess there's no way around the shared tracks short of building a whole new line somwhere which doesn't really seem all that easy around here.

[danbrotherston]

Nope. Not at all. Only supposedly less expensive to implement #2WADGO. It actually makes it harder to do it as electrified rail because of continuing to share tracks with CN.

Another supposed reason was because it would let them do it sooner than what the Liberals promised, but no timelines coming out of Metrolinx have change from the Wynne government promises.

Well dang. I guess there's no way around the shared tracks short of building a whole new line somwhere which doesn't really seem all that easy around here.

If building something new isn't all that easy, then we have bigger problems than transit.

The thing is building new things is really easy, if the political will is there, see the new highway 7 (which, yes, I realize has been promised for years, but is still being built right now).  This drives me absolutely insane, we are going through this whole process, building business cases, etc.

But for building a brand new freeway, if MTO says it, well, open the flood gates to the slush fund, no justification, no evaluation, no business case needed.

It doesn't even matter which is more controversial...I don't think anyone anywhere is, on principle, against improving GO service, but plenty oppose expanding the highway, so only one of these things is controversial.

And no, there is no way around those tracks without building new tracks, we CN has private property rights, and is unlikely to just give up their core business in southern Ontario so that we can run electric passenger trains because we ask nicely.

Like I said, I assume the plan right now is to run dual mode locomotives...which are...a thing which technically works but just seems really wasteful.

Of course, metrolinx hasn't answered this yet...frankly, given how political metrolinx is being run right now, I wouldn't put it past them for the unspoken policy to be to back the future government into a shitty corner where they can't even run electric trains on that section.

[tomh009]

Like I said, I assume the plan right now is to run dual mode locomotives...which are...a thing which technically works but just seems really wasteful.

Are dual-mode locomotives really that wasteful? I think they should be much simpler than a plug-in hybrid car, as the current locomotives (such as the MP54) are diesel-electric anyway, so you already have the electric motors, and are really just adding the capability to power the motors from the catenary, rather than a diesel generator.

A PHEV car, on the other hand, needs both a conventional and an electric powertrain. (However, IIRC, the BMW i3 range extender was a gasoline-powered generator that would power the electric motors when the battery ran low.)

[hellocharliewest]

I think the other thing to consider other than the dual mode locomotives being potentially more wasteful is that we can run less trains if sharing CN tracks, and that GO Trains will always have to yield to CN trains since they own the tracks, resulting in potential delays and inconsistent schedules. And of course headway will be limited by the amount of dual-mode locomotives available to run on the line. I somehow doubt that GO Transit will be purchasing more dual-mode locomotives just to run to K/W, and if they did, it seems like a poor investment to be purchasing new (partly) diesel powered locomotives in 2020, considering that they will probably be in use for decades to come.

[jamincan]

One major operational consequence of dual-mode vs. EMUs is that the dual-mode's have much lower acceleration.

[tomh009]

One major operational consequence of dual-mode vs. EMUs is that the dual-mode's have much lower acceleration.

EMU is a whole other dimension, though, is it not? It would require also replacing all the bilevel passenger cars that GO has standardized on.

[danbrotherston]

Like I said, I assume the plan right now is to run dual mode locomotives...which are...a thing which technically works but just seems really wasteful.

Are dual-mode locomotives really that wasteful? I think they should be much simpler than a plug-in hybrid car, as the current locomotives (such as the MP54) are diesel-electric anyway, so you already have the electric motors, and are really just adding the capability to power the motors from the catenary, rather than a diesel generator.

A PHEV car, on the other hand, needs both a conventional and an electric powertrain. (However, IIRC, the BMW i3 range extender was a gasoline-powered generator that would power the electric motors when the battery ran low.)

Caveat, I have no railway experience of any kind.  But compared with an electric locomotive, a dual mode locomotive has an entire diesel power unit extra that must be purchased and maintained, that’s a lot of machinery we wouldn’t otherwise need to buy. Yes, not necessarily much worse than a standard diesel electric unit, but much worse than a straight electric unit.

[KevinL]

The advantage to my mind is that a mostly-electric network means that GO can run EMUs on large portions of the network (eg, Bramalea-Union, Oakville-Union-Oshawa) and dual-mode locomotives on all of it. It's not the all-electric ideal, but it builds towards it.

[jwilliamson]

Here's a link to a Metrolinx page for the project: https://www.metrolinxengage.com/en/engag...ridor-tpap

Is there any reason why the CN-owned part of the line can't be electrified while still allowing CN's diesel locos?

[Coke6pk]

That was one of my first thoughts too. We just finished the bridge not long ago. I wonder what all needs to be done to make it GO worthy?

Doesn't seem like much...

   

Coke

[KevinL]

Is there any reason why the CN-owned part of the line can't be electrified while still allowing CN's diesel locos?

I think there are regulations around proper grounding and stray voltage avoidance. This is particularly an issue for taller stock, like double-stack containers, which I think CN sometimes brings through here.

While that might be surmountable on a practical level, I think that CN would prefer to avoid any such complications and will flatly veto any proposal.

[jamincan]

At a bare minimum, it adds another complication and risk to track maintenance for CN.

[clasher]

Well dang. I guess there's no way around the shared tracks short of building a whole new line somwhere which doesn't really seem all that easy around here.

If building something new isn't all that easy, then we have bigger problems than transit.

I was just thinking that this area where the railway runs a lot more urban/developed so that would make it more difficult to build than just laying a new rail line in a more rural area, but I'm not very familiar with the possibilities for building a new line in that area. I agree with you that it should be easy to build better transit and that they should have a really strong business case for building new highways.

[Bytor]

One major operational consequence of dual-mode vs. EMUs is that the dual-mode's have much lower acceleration.

EMU is a whole other dimension, though, is it not? It would require also replacing all the bilevel passenger cars that GO has standardized on.

Not really. Diesel locomotives are really diesel-electric locomotives. The diesel engine only drives a generator, not the wheels directly, and head-end power couplings to the coach cars is standardised as well, so you can swap one for the other.