Cycling in Waterloo Region

[jeffster]

Okay, this is more of a cycling question, not totally winter related.

When I travel inside a roundabout, I try to keep an eye on the exit, in case of pedestrians or cyclists. The other day, when travelling towards Stirling on Homer Watson (at Ottawa), there was a cyclist who had not yet crossed the road. I came to a quick stop to allow him to proceed, and he was motioning me to proceed, which I ignored, since I already stopped. He then proceeded to cross Homer Watson.

So I am under the assumption that pedestrians and cyclists have right of way, hence why we shouldn't take a roundabout at 100 KPH like some drivers. My assumption is correct, right? The cyclist seemed annoyed that I stopped for him.

[plam]

Okay, this is more of a cycling question, not totally winter related.

When I travel inside a roundabout, I try to keep an eye on the exit, in case of pedestrians or cyclists. The other day, when travelling towards Stirling on Homer Watson (at Ottawa), there was a cyclist who had not yet crossed the road. I came to a quick stop to allow him to proceed, and he was motioning me to proceed, which I ignored, since I already stopped. He then proceeded to cross Homer Watson.

So I am under the assumption that pedestrians and cyclists have right of way, hence why we shouldn't take a roundabout at 100 KPH like some drivers. My assumption is correct, right? The cyclist seemed annoyed that I stopped for him.

Hmm. There's a crosswalk right? Cyclists technically don't have the right of way on a crosswalk when on their bicycle and they could get charged if hit by a car. There are sometimes crossrides in a few places which should be more certain.

More realistically I always don't quite trust that people will stop their cars even if I do have right of way.

[danbrotherston]

Okay, this is more of a cycling question, not totally winter related.

When I travel inside a roundabout, I try to keep an eye on the exit, in case of pedestrians or cyclists. The other day, when travelling towards Stirling on Homer Watson (at Ottawa), there was a cyclist who had not yet crossed the road. I came to a quick stop to allow him to proceed, and he was motioning me to proceed, which I ignored, since I already stopped. He then proceeded to cross Homer Watson.

So I am under the assumption that pedestrians and cyclists have right of way, hence why we shouldn't take a roundabout at 100 KPH like some drivers. My assumption is correct, right? The cyclist seemed annoyed that I stopped for him.

Hmm. There's a crosswalk right? Cyclists technically don't have the right of way on a crosswalk when on their bicycle and they could get charged if hit by a car. There are sometimes crossrides in a few places which should be more certain.

More realistically I always don't quite trust that people will stop their cars even if I do have right of way.

This is correct, cyclists do not have the right of way unless there are crossride markings (and peds do not have the right of way when there are not PXO markings). I hate it when drivers stop when they have the right of way, and I will usually also refuse to go. In many cases it is more dangerous and means that if anything does go wrong I, as the person who does not have the right of way, will automatically be at fault.

I even had a police officer stop for me once when I was waiting on the ped island on Weber st, one of the most dangerous places for a driver to stop improperly. He pulled up and rolled down his window and asked why I wasn't going when he let me go. I explained that if I went and someone in the other lane (which I might not see behind his giant SUV) hit me, he'd be right here to give me a ticket for crossing improperly. On the IHT I've had cars stop and wait and then cars behind them overtake on the wrong side of the road which is amazing because I was looking the other way.  The only reason I wasn't hit was because the driver who stopped improperly had the wherewithal to honk. Even more annoying when I am on a bike and turning left very often when the light goes green oncoming drivers will "try to be nice" and let me go.  Which of course from my perspective looks exactly the same as a driver on their phone at a light, who will see the green and stomp on the gas without seeing me. And again, my fault. 

Ultimately it's incredibly frustrating when drivers don't follow the right of way laws. But in their defense our right of way laws are pessimal. They maximize both delay AND danger. Doubly so for roundabouts where peds have right of way but cyclists do not.

[Coke6pk]

In the roundabout the pedestrians do have right of way. I guess the issue is was he on the bike?

Are cyclists expected to bike in a traffic lane in roundabouts?

Coke

[danbrotherston]

In the roundabout the pedestrians do have right of way.  I guess the issue is was he on the bike?

Are cyclists expected to bike in a traffic lane in roundabouts?

Coke

Yes, pedestrians have the right of way (not that it matters much). If you are on a bike though, you are legally required to dismount to cross (there is a singular exception in the region...possibly the province....at Huron and Strasburg, which was modified as an experiment to allow cyclists to cross without dismounting, but they still do not have the right of way). Of course, this is an insane statement, and almost nobody dismounts...engineers know this, but it doesn't seem to matter.

As for cyclists behaviour at roundabouts, a cyclist on the road has the option of either leaving the road and crossing with pedestrians (with the caveats above) or entering a traffic lane and going around with the other vehicles.

Neither option is great, but both are legal, and in theory, both are supported by the infrastructure...again above caveats notwithstanding

If a cyclist is already on a MUT next to the road though, there is no infrastructure for them to enter the roadway and navigate it with other vehicles, that doesn't make it illegal, just, difficult, but that cyclist is clearly expected to cross with pedestrians.

[tomh009]

Ultimately it's incredibly frustrating when drivers don't follow the right of way laws.

Well, technically the law doesn't obligate the driver to go first, it only gives him or her the right to go first. So maybe it should be:

Ultimately it's incredibly frustrating when drivers don't follow take advantage of the right of way laws.

[danbrotherston]

Ultimately it's incredibly frustrating when drivers don't follow the right of way laws.

Well, technically the law doesn't obligate the driver to go first, it only gives him or her the right to go first. So maybe it should be:

Ultimately it's incredibly frustrating when drivers don't follow take advantage of the right of way laws.

I mean....are you a lawyer? You sound like a lawyer.

The common understood meaning is that those with the right of way go first. There is probably nothing illegal about yielding the right of way, but it doesn't mean it isn't against the intended function of the system.

If you want to be specific, I might cross out the "laws" part of the second quote rather than adjusting the "follow" portion. Drivers aren't "taking advantage", they are simply acting in the expected AND intended manner.

[Acitta]

The roundabout at Huron and Strasburg is referred to as a Dutch "inspired" roundabout rather than simply a Dutch "style" roundabout specifically because Ontario doesn't allow crossrides at roundabouts even though we are building all of these MUTs that funnel pedestrians and cyclists to the same crossings.

[danbrotherston]

The roundabout at Huron and Strasburg is referred to as a Dutch "inspired" roundabout rather than simply a Dutch "style" roundabout specifically because Ontario doesn't allow crossrides at roundabouts even though we are building all of these MUTs that funnel pedestrians and cyclists to the same crossings.

Indeed.

And honestly, it boggles my mind that engineers take themselves seriously. A roundabout where cyclists don't have the right of way but peds do, is far more confusing than one with consistent right of way rules. And these engineers know that cyclists do not dismount at crosswalks. The choice to maintain the laws the way they are only about shifting legal liability, not behaviour or outcomes. I'm sure most engineers do not do it for this reason, they probably honestly believe they are mitigating risk, but it's really about fear of change.

But in my work experience, I meet lots of people like this, where change is utterly terrifying, and they play it off as "mitigating risk". It isn't unusual.

Virtually everyone in the world would do with more UX and Human interaction experience.

[Acitta]

The roundabout at Huron and Strasburg is referred to as a Dutch "inspired" roundabout rather than simply a Dutch "style" roundabout specifically because Ontario doesn't allow crossrides at roundabouts even though we are building all of these MUTs that funnel pedestrians and cyclists to the same crossings.

Indeed.

And honestly, it boggles my mind that engineers take themselves seriously. A roundabout where cyclists don't have the right of way but peds do, is far more confusing than one with consistent right of way rules. And these engineers know that cyclists do not dismount at crosswalks. The choice to maintain the laws the way they are only about shifting legal liability, not behaviour or outcomes. I'm sure most engineers do not do it for this reason, they probably honestly believe they are mitigating risk, but it's really about fear of change.

But in my work experience, I meet lots of people like this, where change is utterly terrifying, and they play it off as "mitigating risk". It isn't unusual.

Virtually everyone in the world would do with more UX and Human interaction experience.

As stated in the recent CycleWR State of the Network meeting, they wanted to build crossrides in the roundabout but provincial regulations don't allow them to.

[danbrotherston]

Indeed.

And honestly, it boggles my mind that engineers take themselves seriously. A roundabout where cyclists don't have the right of way but peds do, is far more confusing than one with consistent right of way rules. And these engineers know that cyclists do not dismount at crosswalks. The choice to maintain the laws the way they are only about shifting legal liability, not behaviour or outcomes. I'm sure most engineers do not do it for this reason, they probably honestly believe they are mitigating risk, but it's really about fear of change.

But in my work experience, I meet lots of people like this, where change is utterly terrifying, and they play it off as "mitigating risk". It isn't unusual.

Virtually everyone in the world would do with more UX and Human interaction experience.

As stated in the recent CycleWR State of the Network meeting, they wanted to build crossrides in the roundabout but provincial regulations don't allow them to.

Oh, I am quite aware. I was referring specifically to the engineers who wrote those regulations.  In fact, this year, a new engineering guide is coming out, and it includes massive improvements (like, seriously, this is a good news story, it is drastically improved), but still does not permit cyclist right of way crossings at roundabouts.

[Acitta]

I frequently use the MUTs at the Homer Watson/Ottawa roundabout, generally when I am heading to Zehrs. I find that most drivers treat me as if I am a pedestrian and stop at the crossings. Once, a driver exiting the roundabout came to a screeching halt upon seeing me on the sidewalk. I am a careful cyclist and don't assume that drivers will stop especially since some places where MUTs cross roads have signs saying stop for pedestrians and some don't. Some drivers stop even when there is no sign and some do not. Without stop lights it is like Russian roulette.

[danbrotherston]

I frequently use the MUTs at the Homer Watson/Ottawa roundabout, generally when I am heading to Zehrs. I find that most drivers treat me as if I am a pedestrian and stop at the crossings. Once, a driver exiting the roundabout came to a screeching halt upon seeing me on the sidewalk. I am a careful cyclist and don't assume that drivers will stop especially since some places where MUTs cross roads have signs saying stop for pedestrians and some don't. Some drivers stop even when there is no sign and some do not. Without stop lights it is like Russian roulette.

That is an accurate description.

[dtkvictim]

I specifically go out of my way to avoid any roundabouts in the region. I have never felt safe crossing one as a pedestrian. IMO roundabouts with 2 lane exits are incompatible with pedestrian crossings (and cycle crossings if we built those). I'm curious if the Dutch build any 2 lane roundabouts without building a cycling underpass?

This is all slightly off topic, but personally I find that crossing islands exacerbate the yielding right of way problem you are all describing. Not saying it's better to not have the crossings, it's just a different set of problems. Ideally the crossings would just have right of way to remove confusion. More blinking lights like in Victoria Park would be great.

[ijmorlan]

As stated in the recent CycleWR State of the Network meeting, they wanted to build crossrides in the roundabout but provincial regulations don't allow them to.
[/quote]

This makes no sense. How far from the roundabout does the crossing have to be before it isn’t part of the roundabout but just a crosswalk, not affected by roundabout regulations? What if you had the roundabout pedestrian crossing, then a 1m gap, then a crossride-equipped crosswalk?