General Road and Highway Discussion

[jamincan]

It's not just been one train, they've been running test trains almost daily now apparently. It's also not out of the blue - the Ontario government announced they were looking to introduce train service to London two years ago.

The problem, as I see it, is that some of the ground work needed to make it work is still missing. If the train is to leave at a reasonable time in the morning, it would either have to deadhead there from Kitchener (plausible, but wasteful), or they would need to install wayside equipment in London for overnight power. I'm not sure there is even track space to overnight in London right now. The track condition west of Kitchener is also terrible, so service will be very slow. It would easily be the longest train journey on GO if it happens.

[ac3r]

It's not just been one train, they've been running test trains almost daily now apparently. It's also not out of the blue - the Ontario government announced they were looking to introduce train service to London two years ago.

The problem, as I see it, is that some of the ground work needed to make it work is still missing. If the train is to leave at a reasonable time in the morning, it would either have to deadhead there from Kitchener (plausible, but wasteful), or they would need to install wayside equipment in London for overnight power. I'm not sure there is even track space to overnight in London right now. The track condition west of Kitchener is also terrible, so service will be very slow. It would easily be the longest train journey on GO if it happens.

Interesting, I had no idea they were looking into that. Given that the track condition west of Waterloo Region is bad, I wonder if they'd instead use the CN Dundas subdivision or the CP Galt subdivision. The latter would be interesting because it could legitimize the request that Waterloo Region (specifically, the City of Cambridge), Halton Region and the Town of Milton have petitioned to Metrolinx.

Anyway, I don't want to derail (ha) this thread with GO Transit stuff too much since there is a thread for that. I wasn't sure where to put the Amtrack announcement.

[taylortbb]

It's not just been one train, they've been running test trains almost daily now apparently. It's also not out of the blue - the Ontario government announced they were looking to introduce train service to London two years ago.

The problem, as I see it, is that some of the ground work needed to make it work is still missing. If the train is to leave at a reasonable time in the morning, it would either have to deadhead there from Kitchener (plausible, but wasteful), or they would need to install wayside equipment in London for overnight power. I'm not sure there is even track space to overnight in London right now. The track condition west of Kitchener is also terrible, so service will be very slow. It would easily be the longest train journey on GO if it happens.

Interesting, I had no idea they were looking into that. Given that the track condition west of Waterloo Region is bad, I wonder if they'd instead use the CN Dundas subdivision or the CP Galt subdivision. The latter would be interesting because it could legitimize the request that Waterloo Region (specifically, the City of Cambridge), Halton Region and the Town of Milton have petitioned to Metrolinx.

Anyway, I don't want to derail (ha) this thread with GO Transit stuff too much since there is a thread for that. I wasn't sure where to put the Amtrack announcement.

The test trains have been spotted in Stratford, so via Kitchener is definitely the route they're looking at. I assume that Go would purchase the rest of the line from Kitchener to London in they did that, I doubt CN would want much money for it. If Go took ownership and started upgrading track quality it would be the first step to Amtrak running via Kitchener.

I had the same thought when I saw the Amtrak announcement, but I checked the current Via times from London to Toronto. Toronto via Brantford most trains take 2:10, the longest 2:30, but via Kitchener the train is 3:30. That's a difference of more than a hour in the typical case to go via Kitchener. A quick Google Map measurement of rail length has London to Toronto via Kitchener at 195km, and via Brantford at 185km, so the difference is almost entirely track quality.

I also think for this to make sense it really should be a joint Amtrak-Via service, so that it's possible to use the train for trips within Canada. Right now the Amtrack services are (IIRC) disembark-only after crossing the border until they reach their Canadian destination, then embark-only until they cross the border after turning around. When the section in Canada is just a tiny bit from Niagara Falls to Toronto it's not a big deal, but Windsor to Toronto could use another local train on it, and the additional revenue would make the project more viable.

[plam]

I also think for this to make sense it really should be a joint Amtrak-Via service, so that it's possible to use the train for trips within Canada. Right now the Amtrack services are (IIRC) disembark-only after crossing the border until they reach their Canadian destination, then embark-only until they cross the border after turning around. When the section in Canada is just a tiny bit from Niagara Falls to Toronto it's not a big deal, but Windsor to Toronto could use another local train on it, and the additional revenue would make the project more viable.

The Toronto to New York service is operated by VIA until the border and then switches staff to Amtrak staff operating past the border. I don't know if you can get on the train between Toronto and Niagara Falls though.

[taylortbb]

I don't know if you can get on the train between Toronto and Niagara Falls though.

I may be wrong and/or out of date. I remember reading about that limitation a decade ago, but I can't find anything online that supports my claim.

That would certainly make it easier to justify the new Chicago-Toronto route, it could even replace one of the existing Windsor-Toronto runs if Via's budget was the issue.

[plam]

I don't know if you can get on the train between Toronto and Niagara Falls though.

I may be wrong and/or out of date. I remember reading about that limitation a decade ago, but I can't find anything online that supports my claim.

That would certainly make it easier to justify the new Chicago-Toronto route, it could even replace one of the existing Windsor-Toronto runs if Via's budget was the issue.

Looks like it's not currently operating, but it stopped in Oakville, Aldershot, Grimsby, St. Catherines, and Niagara Falls. Pretty sure you could get on at these stops. (And there's GO to Niagara Falls as well.)

[dtkvictim]

Does anyone know what the plans are here? Rather strange setup at Benton/Courtland. No through traffic across Courtland, and I think the sharrows might be new? To top it off, the most comically large right turn lane.

Hopefully some sort of precursor to cycling infrastructure on Benton.

[panamaniac]

Why no through traffic across Courtland?

[danbrotherston]

Does anyone know what the plans are here? Rather strange setup at Benton/Courtland. No through traffic across Courtland, and I think the sharrows might be new? To top it off, the most comically large right turn lane.
...

The region has literally no plans whatsoever. If it was left to regional staff, they'd repave it 4 lanes again.

But I'd appreciate you signing my petition: https://www.change.org/betterbenton

I'll be presenting these plans to regional council hopefully in September.

Also see:

https://betterbenton.netlify.app/

[tomh009]

Why no through traffic across Courtland?

Judging by the arrows only, there is no through traffic. The centre lane (which goes straight across) bis not marked at all.

It's a remnant of long-dead plans for a thoroughfare. The same plans dictated the city purchasing the rowhouse unit closest to Benton and tearing it down, too.

I do think the region recognizes that it makes no sense in its current configuration, but, as Dan says, there is no plan for what it should be in the future.

[danbrotherston]

Why no through traffic across Courtland?

Judging by the arrows, there is no through traffic. The centre lane is not marked at all.

It's a remnant of long-dead plans for a thoroughfare. The same plans dictated the city purchasing the rowhouse unit closest to Benton and tearing it down, too.

I do think the region recognizes that it makes no sense in its current configuration, but, as Dan says, there is no plan for what it should be in the future.

Yeah, I mean, if you ask staff, they fully know that it is pointless in its current configuration. But that hasn't stopped them continuing to repave it 4 lanes for the past 4 decades....including massive reconstruction for LRT which has squandered a once in a lifetime opportunity to rethink it through downtown.

The same problem exists with the other end of the throughfare project, which is Homer-Watson. We rebuild the massive Homer-Watson/Ottawa intersection with zero consideration that there is no reason for a massive five lane road leading to a T intersection with a residential street.

[panamaniac]

One would think big changes might wait until the road needs rebuilding, which would be 20 or 30 years down the road, no?

[danbrotherston]

One would think big changes might wait until the road needs rebuilding,  which would be 20 or 30 years down the road, no?

Try 3-5 years. But first, why should we wait that long, we should make changes to fix the road now, right now it divides my neighbourhood and endangers me when I want to cross.

But also, the region has proven that they won't make changes even when there is a big rebuild...our region is just generally incompetent and needs to be dragged kicking and screaming into good policy.

I'd have worse things to say, but sadly I've been watching what the province has been doing for the past year, so they don't look so bad by comparison.

[panamaniac]

One would think big changes might wait until the road needs rebuilding,  which would be 20 or 30 years down the road, no?

Try 3-5 years. But first, why should we wait that long, we should make changes to fix the road now, right now it divides my neighbourhood and endangers me when I want to cross.

But also, the region has proven that they won't make changes even when there is a big rebuild...our region is just generally incompetent and needs to be dragged kicking and screaming into good policy.

I'd have worse things to say, but sadly I've been watching what the province has been doing for the past year, so they don't look so bad by comparison.

3-5 would be great, although I thought rebuilds happened after about 70 years or so (Benton was widened in the mid-60s, iirc).  What they must avoid is spending money on cosmetic changes that are going to be torn up when they get to rebuild time.

[danbrotherston]

Try 3-5 years. But first, why should we wait that long, we should make changes to fix the road now, right now it divides my neighbourhood and endangers me when I want to cross.

But also, the region has proven that they won't make changes even when there is a big rebuild...our region is just generally incompetent and needs to be dragged kicking and screaming into good policy.

I'd have worse things to say, but sadly I've been watching what the province has been doing for the past year, so they don't look so bad by comparison.

3-5 would be great, although I thought rebuilds happened after about 70 years or so (Benton was widened in the mid-60s, iirc).  What they must avoid is spending money on cosmetic changes that are going to be torn up when they get to rebuild time.

I'm not sure exactly what schedule rebuilds happen, but mid 60s is around 60 years from from 3-5 years from now.

But I disagree, spending money on cosmetic changes that make a road better for our city and help reduce climate change today are what are desperately needed, we cannot wait 20-30 years for a better city. We need it now.

And "cosmetic" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here, "cosmetic" meaning surface meaning 100% of the user experience of the road...every thing the average person experiences and thinks about...yes, it doesn't include subsurface works, but the surface works are the most important thing in how people actually use a street.