The COVID-19 pandemic

[ijmorlan]

1) People have the right to choose or not to choose medical procedure (which a vaccine shot is). This is constitutional.

Right, but they don’t have the right to make that decision with no consequences.

It simply doesn’t make sense to reject science and medicine by refusing the vaccine, and then run back to the hospital when one gets sick, and I don’t see why the rest of us should be forced to subsidize this behaviour.

[ac3r]

Nobody has said this, and nobody is even remotely talking about eugenics.

EVERYONE has repeatedly explained that the objection here is that in a triage situation that anti-vaxxers would get treatment INSTEAD of their victims.

Now I'm tired of explaining this, if you folks refuse to understand what that means, I can't fix it, but this is a pretty offensive response.

Lol. Is this your fetish? Just arguing with people...even those who were not even talking to you? Give it a rest. Here, give me your hand, I'll help you off your giraffe sized horse so you don't hurt yourself.

Like holy hell, I post a link about a young child - not even 10 years old - who just died in our city due to this virus/disease and immediately the thread just ignores it and continues arguing about their subjective moral superiorities and ideas on who should live and who should die. I'll just try to stick to discussing architecture and urban planning while posting the odd informative link here. I feel like I'm reading the YouTube comments on a Covid-19 video posted by Global News at this point.

[jeffster]

For some additional reading, take a look at this government information:

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/...1310039401

When looking at each of those leading causes of death, ask yourself, why? Cancer and heart disease are #1 and #2. Things like genetics, and age, can play a roll, but other things like smoking, drinking, obesity, play a bigger roll.

So far, Covid-19 have caused 27,000 in over 18 month -- many of these had 1, 2 or more co-morbid's. Regardless, at the same time, cancer and heart disease would have taken about 200,000 people to their grave.

Just something to reflect on.

[jeffster]

1) People have the right to choose or not to choose medical procedure (which a vaccine shot is). This is constitutional.

Right, but they don’t have the right to make that decision with no consequences.

It simply doesn’t make sense to reject science and medicine by refusing the vaccine, and then run back to the hospital when one gets sick, and I don’t see why the rest of us should be forced to subsidize this behaviour.

You know what, I agree to a degree. Totally. But I also feel the same way when it comes to subsidizing smokers, alcoholics, addicts, lazy people, etc. All these people are ALSO rejecting science and medicine regarding their choice.

The difference is: you reject the vaccine, the chances of you becoming seriously ill and needed an ICU bed is incredible rare. Especially if you practice all of the other recommendations. However, if you're a heavy smoker, heavy drinking, for example, the chances of you needing an ICU is pretty much guaranteed at some point in your life. My grandmother certainly didn't escape that. Neither did my step-granddad. At least with grandma, she stop her drinking and smoking ways, died a home a few years later. Step granddad didn't, so he got that wonderful opportunity of dying in a hospital, hooked to a ventilator, for 6 months. He was 98 though, so, he likely didn't believe it was the smoking or drinking.

[danbrotherston]

EVERYONE has repeatedly explained that the objection here is that in a triage situation that anti-vaxxers would get treatment INSTEAD of their victims.

Clarity Dan, because this is confusing as hell.

What I posted: Ontario, and indeed most of Canada, are not short on ICU beds. What I have asked: how many anti-vaxxers are in the ICU.  And, WHO are their victims?

I have said a lot of things, but you don't address any counter-claim that I make. Zilch.

And you have been crystal clear in peddling the idea of not treating unvaccinated people, regardless of reason.

But please do provide the link of anti-vax population in the ICU in Ontario -- and we can discuss those consequences.

I also stand by my comment, -- ticket these anti-vax protestors.

And hell, why not fine EVERYONE that doesn't want to get a vaccine? WE have at least 1,000,000 left that will never get a vaccine, charge them $1,000. If they get sick, and need a hospital, you have $1 billion to draw from and not take away from anyone else.

You're going to have to provide a citation that explains why you think I have been clear in this. Every single statement I have made has been clear that I am talking about a triage situation only (and I have also been clear that such a situation is NOT occuring in Ontario, but IS occurring in parts of the US and may occur in Alberta in the near future as well).

By the way, the fraser institute is not a particularly reliable source FYI.

[Acitta]

Health care is the largest budget item for provincial governments, so they are always trying to save money by cutbacks or restricting the number of doctors and nurses, etc. When a major crisis happens like the current pandemic, we are caught short because of government stinginess and lack of foresight. Hence triage and avoidable tragedy.

[panamaniac]

Health care is the largest budget item for provincial governments, so they are always trying to save money by cutbacks or restricting the number of doctors and nurses, etc. When a major crisis happens like the current pandemic, we are caught short because of government stinginess and lack of foresight. Hence triage and avoidable tragedy.

I wonder whether the pandemic has lessened public resistance to the provincial tax increases that would be needed to fund health care at something closer to the necessary level.  My gut tells me "no", unfortunately.

[jeffster]

Clarity Dan, because this is confusing as hell.

What I posted: Ontario, and indeed most of Canada, are not short on ICU beds. What I have asked: how many anti-vaxxers are in the ICU.  And, WHO are their victims?

I have said a lot of things, but you don't address any counter-claim that I make. Zilch.

And you have been crystal clear in peddling the idea of not treating unvaccinated people, regardless of reason.

But please do provide the link of anti-vax population in the ICU in Ontario -- and we can discuss those consequences.

I also stand by my comment, -- ticket these anti-vax protestors.

And hell, why not fine EVERYONE that doesn't want to get a vaccine? WE have at least 1,000,000 left that will never get a vaccine, charge them $1,000. If they get sick, and need a hospital, you have $1 billion to draw from and not take away from anyone else.

You're going to have to provide a citation that explains why you think I have been clear in this. Every single statement I have made has been clear that I am talking about a triage situation only (and I have also been clear that such a situation is NOT occuring in Ontario, but IS occurring in parts of the US and may occur in Alberta in the near future as well).

By the way, the fraser institute is not a particularly reliable source FYI.

On the bright side, you found one link that I posted that you didn't like. But at least I am posting links that are not blogs (not say that you did).

What you have been clear about is that guilty people (the unvaccinated) are murdering innocent people because of their choice.

Now you're trying to clarify that this isn't the situation in Ontario -- so why the hell are we even talking about it? Who the hells cares about Alberta or the USA. We're not them. If we're going to go down that road, let's talk about developing nations and how we have countries like Canada horde vaccinations and have several members of it's population that wants to force a vaccine that they don't want, rather than share more vaccine with these countries so we can get covid-19 under control more quickly.

Otherwise, we stick to local issues.

[danbrotherston]

You're going to have to provide a citation that explains why you think I have been clear in this. Every single statement I have made has been clear that I am talking about a triage situation only (and I have also been clear that such a situation is NOT occuring in Ontario, but IS occurring in parts of the US and may occur in Alberta in the near future as well).

By the way, the fraser institute is not a particularly reliable source FYI.

On the bright side, you found one link that I posted that you didn't like. But at least I am posting links that are not blogs (not say that you did).

What you have been clear about is that guilty people (the unvaccinated) are murdering innocent people because of their choice.

Now you're trying to clarify that this isn't the situation in Ontario -- so why the hell are we even talking about it? Who the hells cares about Alberta or the USA. We're not them. If we're going to go down that road, let's talk about developing nations and how we have countries like Canada horde vaccinations and have several members of it's population that wants to force a vaccine that they don't want, rather than share more vaccine with these countries so we can get covid-19 under control more quickly.

Otherwise, we stick to local issues.

Those are two separate issues. The unvaccinated absolutely are killing innocent people. This is uncontroversial, we've known this for decades.

Whether they should be denied medical treatment as a result is an entirely different question and that is the thing you are accusing me of. Like I said, I have never stated that they should be denied medical treatment, only that in a triage situation I think there is a compelling argument that we should consider not putting them in front of others.

And no, not "now", in every prior comment I have explicitly stated the locations where triage is going on. As for who cares about Alberta or the USA *I CARE* I have family and friends in both places. Also, there are human beings in both places and I'm inclined to care about other human beings in general.

But I see that your question about why I care about Alberta is just another bullshit moral "gotcha" (for the record, I ALSO care about human beings in other countries, and I also wish for vaccines to be more widely available, but I digress).

[tomh009]

10-day averages for key regions in Ontario, plus the weekly trend as of 2021-09-18 (posting this every Saturday).

Region	Cases today	per 100K	10-day average	per 100K	Weekly trend
Chatham-Kent	16	15.1	16	15.2	-10%
Windsor-Essex	48	12.3	54	14.0	-35%
Brant	17	12.5	13	9.8	+20%
Wellington-Dufferin-Guelph	42	15.4	21	7.6	+108%
Hamilton	25	4.3	42	7.3	-42%
Niagara	22	4.9	30	6.6	-28%
Peel	114	8.2	88	6.4	+8%
York	80	7.2	67	6.1	-4%
Middlesex-London	41	10.1	24	6.0	+38%
Ottawa	76	7.6	59	5.9	+1%
Eastern Ontario	19	9.4	12	5.9	+84%
Southwestern Ontario	11	5.5	10	5.2	+48%
Toronto	152	5.2	149	5.1	-3%
Durham	47	7.3	33	5.0	+39%
Simcoe-Muskoka	21	3.9	26	4.8	-32%
Huron Perth	4	4.1	5	4.8	+10%
Halton	19	3.5	24	4.4	-28%
Waterloo	23	3.7	27	4.4	+2%
Lambton	4	3.1	5	4.0	+4%
Kingston Frontenac	4	2.0	5	2.5	-28%
Leeds, Grenville & Lanark	2	1.2	4	2.5	+0%
Grey Bruce	5	3.1	4	2.2	+50%
Northwestern	3	3.4	2	1.9	+80%
Sudbury	15	3.9	7	1.8	+66%					-4%

The vaccine mandate kicks in in four days' time. Amazingly we have been able to contain Delta for now, hopefully the vaccine mandate (and the slowly-increasing vaccination rates) will be able to bend the curve down further in the coming months.

And, while I am no Doug Ford fan, I have to give him some credit for listening to the experts since Delta started spreading. Even setting aside the dumpster fires in Alberta and Saskatchewan, Ontario is still doing substantially better than, say, BC or Quebec, and clearly the best of the big provinces. No hasty moves, no circus tricks, just cautious and (small-c) conservative policies for managing the pandemic.

Oh, yes, I should mention that the Waterloo Region health unit has not been looking nearly as incompetent recently as they were accused of being early in the summer.

   

[tomh009]

I think this debate has run it's course.

I agree.

[tomh009]

SATURDAY 2021-09-18

Waterloo Region reported 34 new cases for today (16.3% of the active cases) and none fewer for yesterday for 34; 183 new cases for the week (+11 from yesterday and +14 from last week), averaging 13.0% of active cases. 236 active cases, +47 in the last seven days.

Next testing report on Tuesday.

Next vaccination report on Monday.

Ontario reported 821 new cases today with a seven-day average of 719 (-5), compared to 716 a week ago. 655 recoveries and 10 (new) deaths translated to an increase of 156 active cases and a new total of 6,395. +186 active cases and 36 deaths for the week. 30,716 tests with a positivity rate of 2.67%. The positivity rate is averaging 2.64% for the past seven days, compared to 3.06% for the preceding seven.

163 people in the ICU, -6 from yesterday and +9 over the past week.

Seven-day vaccination average is at 31,333 doses/day (previous week was 31,542). 75.25% of total provincial population vaccinated (+0.62% from 7 days ago), 69.84% fully vaccinated (+0.87% from 7 days ago).

Cases/100K by regional health unit:

• 42 cases in Wellington-Dufferin-Guelph: 15.4 per 100K
  
• 16 cases in Chatham-Kent: 15.1 per 100K
  
• 17 cases in Brant: 12.5 per 100K
  
• 48 cases in Windsor-Essex: 12.3 per 100K
  
• 41 cases in Middlesex-London: 10.1 per 100K
  
• 19 cases in Eastern Ontario: 9.4 per 100K
  
• 114 cases in Peel: 8.2 per 100K
  
• 76 cases in Ottawa: 7.6 per 100K
  
• 47 cases in Durham: 7.3 per 100K
  
• 80 cases in York: 7.2 per 100K
  
• 11 cases in Southwestern Ontario: 5.5 per 100K
  
• 152 cases in Toronto: 5.2 per 100K
  
• 22 cases in Niagara: 4.9 per 100K
  
• 25 cases in Hamilton: 4.3 per 100K
  
• 4 cases in Huron Perth: 4.1 per 100K
  
• 21 cases in Simcoe-Muskoka: 3.9 per 100K
  
• 15 cases in Sudbury: 3.9 per 100K
  
• 23 cases in Waterloo: 3.7 per 100K (based on provincial reporting)
  
• 19 cases in Halton: 3.5 per 100K
  
• 3 cases in Northwestern: 3.4 per 100K
  
• 5 cases in Grey Bruce: 3.1 per 100K
  
• 4 cases in Lambton: 3.1 per 100K
  
• 4 cases in Kingston Frontenac: 2.0 per 100K
  
• 2 cases in Leeds, Grenville & Lanark: 1.2 per 100K
  

   

[jeffster]

Saturdays 7-day Covid-19 cases per 100k

• Chatham-Kent Public Health 95.0
• Windsor-Essex County Health Unit 83.1
• Brant County Health Unit 62.5
• Wellington-Dufferin-Guelph Public Health 50.0
• Niagara Region Public Health 43.6
• City of Hamilton Public Health Services 43.4
• Eastern Ontario Health Unit 43.1
• Ottawa Public Health 37.2
• Peel Public Health 36.9
• York Region Public Health 36.4

• Region of Waterloo Public Health and Emergency Services 31.7

• Kingston, Frontenac and Lennox & Addington Public Health 15.0
• Grey Bruce Health Unit 14.7
• North Bay Parry Sound District Health Unit 13.1
• Renfrew County and District Health Unit 12.0
• Northwestern Health Unit 11.4
• Hastings Prince Edward Public Health 11.3
• Algoma Public Health 9.6
• Porcupine Health Unit 7.2
• Thunder Bay District Health Unit 2.0
• Timiskaming Health Unit 0.0

• TOTAL ONTARIO 33.9

[jeffster]

I think this debate has run it's course.

I agree.

Agree

[jeffster]

Current 7-day Covid-19 cases per 100k

• Chatham-Kent Public Health 94.1
• Windsor-Essex County Health Unit 75.3
• Brant County Health Unit 59.9
• Wellington-Dufferin-Guelph Public Health 50.7
• Eastern Ontario Health Unit 48.9
• City of Hamilton Public Health Services 45.3
• Niagara Region Public Health 42.8
• Ottawa Public Health 37.1
• York Region Public Health 36.6
• Southwestern Public Health 34.5

• Region of Waterloo Public Health and Emergency Services 32.0

• Hastings Prince Edward Public Health 15.4
• Grey Bruce Health Unit 15.3
• Algoma Public Health 14.9
• Kingston, Frontenac and Lennox & Addington Public Health 13.6
• Northwestern Health Unit 12.5
• Porcupine Health Unit 8.4
• North Bay Parry Sound District Health Unit 7.7
• Renfrew County and District Health Unit 5.5
• Timiskaming Health Unit 3.1
• Thunder Bay District Health Unit 0.7

• TOTAL ONTARIO 33.4