Grand River Transit

[Bytor]

Damn, really? That's too bad. Hopefully they learn a lesson as they are driven into irrelevance. Zero chance I pay for software that just aggregates free and crowd sourced data. libre software or bust.

Do you expect developers to work full time on your F/OSS software for free? Developing quality software that is updated regularly takes a whole team working full-time jobs. I mean, you could got get the GTFS and GTFS-RT data directly yourself and just read that to try and figure out when your next bus is coming and whether it's behind or ahead of schedule. And crowd-sourced data data like how full a bus is simply doesn't exist unless there is a portal for people add that data, an that portal takes time and money to develop and run.

[ac3r]

It's a phone app, dude. You don't need a whole team working full-time jobs unless your business model is to make money. You can still provide a good application for free if that's your goal and intention. And it can still provide a good product. Nobody pays for Linux and is the backbone of virtually everything we use by virtue of the fact it's free and open source.

Suckers pay for software and greedy bastards expect suckers to pay for it.

[dtkvictim]

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what free (libre) software is if you think it can't cost money. Not that this Transit app appears to be either form of free.

I once ran a popular free web application, which I like to think was a good service. But I encountered countless people with ungrateful and demanding attitudes like yours.. and guess what? Now the service doesn't exist anymore.

And saying nobody pays for Linux is a rather shallow perception. Linux is well funded between the Linux Foundation and the many massive corporations that support the foundation or otherwise contribute to Linux, and this is all still paid for by end consumers, even if indirectly.

[danbrotherston]

Wow...just wow...as a software developer with an interest in FOSS, the attitude that it cannot be free is disturbing, and the claim that nobody pays for linux is equally misguided.

But I digress, I'm glad the easyGO app is going, I don't feel it's an area that GRT will ever provide a competitive service (I mean, they could, but I'm like, not holding my breath given the garbage that is all the rest of their software), so best leave it to better services, they should work to make other transit mapping services work better with GRT.

[tomh009]

Suckers pay for software and greedy bastards expect suckers to pay for it.

Kind of like suckers pay for architecture and greedy bastards expect suckers to pay for it?

There are always some people willing to do some things for free. But most of the larger open source software are funded by either by sponsors (Apache Foundation, Linux Foundation, Apple, Google) or funded from the sales of the "non-community" editions. And most people need (and deserve) a salary for the work they do.

As to paying for software (or architecture), I like to make decisions on a case-by-case basis. I use FreeCAD because I don't need it very often. I use draw.io because I don't need the full Visio functionality. But I happily spend $100/year to get Office 365, because I feel I get good value for the money, even compared to the free options (it also gets me 5 TB of OneDrive storage).

Each one of these value decisions depends on individual needs and values, though. But I won't call someone a "sucker" just because he or she made a different decision than I did.

[ijmorlan]

Suckers pay for software and greedy bastards expect suckers to pay for it.

Kind of like suckers pay for architecture and greedy bastards expect suckers to pay for it?

Yeah, seriously, the complete plans for all buildings should be posted on the Web so if I want to build a building, I can just download a copy and build it. Those architects, wanting to get paid for each individual building. What a bunch of freeloaders!

</sarcasm>

[Acitta]

It's a phone app, dude. You don't need a whole team working full-time jobs unless your business model is to make money. You can still provide a good application for free if that's your goal and intention. And it can still provide a good product. Nobody pays for Linux and is the backbone of virtually everything we use by virtue of the fact it's free and open source.

Suckers pay for software and greedy bastards expect suckers to pay for it.

I hadn't heard that they were going to charge for the app so I looked it up. From their website:

"Some parts of Transit will soon require a paid subscription. It’s a big change. Here’s why we’re doing it.
Over the past decade we’ve grown from two people hacking on Transit, to a team of 60 designers, developers, data scientists, and transit wonks. Together, we make sure your app is super reliable, super fast, and super fun to use.
We spend all day talking with transit agencies to hunt down better data sources. Fixing broken transit data. Tweaking algorithms that predict when your buses and trains will show up. Designing features to make Transit ever-so-imperceptibly better.
This all takes time, money, resources."

I use this app all the time, so it may be worth paying for. However, Triplinx and Rocketman are other Canadian made options.

[KevinL]

I hadn't heard that Transit was going subscription, but I use it enough I may well pay. It's far and away the best tool for the job.

Edit: Okay, I looked over their blog. It looks like it'a a city-by-city rollout, and who knows when they'll get to us; and they will keep a free option, it just won't have as many bells and whistles (you can't plan trips far in the future or in distant cities, for example). I think most folks can live with that.

[Bytor]

It's a phone app, dude. You don't need a whole team working full-time jobs unless your business model is to make money. You can still provide a good application for free if that's your goal and intention. And it can still provide a good product. Nobody pays for Linux and is the backbone of virtually everything we use by virtue of the fact it's free and open source.

Linux is free because

1. There are zillions of people contributing so no individual would necessarily need to make it a full-time job

and 

2. Some of those people are actually paid to do so by their employers who use Linux in their corporate systems, or perhaps foundations that pay them out of donations (usually from corporations who use it)

In group number 1, that group has massive overturn with a very small percentage being long-term contributors for whom that enjoyment sans recompense is enough. And group number 2 is the backbone of the project and is essentially that corporate money subsidising your free use. Driver work is often done by group number 2, employers of the hardware manufacturer making sure it works with something other than just Windows or OS X.

But if all you have is one person doing it, it becomes a hobby. Release are irregular. Bugs can go months or years without getting fixed if the owner doesn't feel "grabbed" by that particular problem or feels it's unimportant, unlike you. New features are whatever they think is neat instead of wanted by the users and often don't have UI/UX testing done on them and end up being annoyingly, unintuitively implemented. Or the author can just feel that it's time to move on to something different.

There's a lot of shitty F/OSS programmes out there, and the good ones are rare, and the good ones that evolve and grow and continue to do so for many years are rarer still. Admit it, every problem I've described above you've all encountered with F/OSS stuff that you've liked, plus other problems. I also bet that you've even had a couple of apps that you've found and liked, but then you realised it hasn't been maintained for two years and will probably stop working in two months when that new iOS or Android version rolls out.

Suckers pay for software and greedy bastards expect suckers to pay for it.

No. People who appreciate the free versions of the good software that they've tried and will continue to use and who recognise the time and hard work that went into it, they will gladly pay for it so that it continues to get bug fixes, feature updates, and stays supported for a long time, whether that's through allowing a single hobbyist author to make it their full-time job, or for a corporation to see it as a positive investment

Your attitude of "do a lot of hard work for me completely freely without any recompense whatsoever" is selfish.

[trainspotter139]

It's a phone app, dude. You don't need a whole team working full-time jobs unless your business model is to make money. You can still provide a good application for free if that's your goal and intention. And it can still provide a good product. Nobody pays for Linux and is the backbone of virtually everything we use by virtue of the fact it's free and open source.

Suckers pay for software and greedy bastards expect suckers to pay for it.

Assuming that it's just a phone app is very narrow-minded. Transit is not just a phone app. As an end-user the only parts you see are the phone app.

Behind the scenes, there's an extensive load-balanced backend infrastructure that:

• processes the "GO" function data that augments existing or replaces missing GTFS-RT data, 
  
• pulls appropriate data from a replication-pooled database that caches GTFS data as you can't rely on GTFS data feeds to have 100% uptime, 
  
• processes GTFS feeds from hundreds of transit agencies to ensure the cache is always up-to-date
  
• pools inputted user data to provide an approximation of crowding.
  
• handles integrations with bikeshare, carshare, rideshare and other integrated services.
  
• handles the logic of trip-planning and packaging the data in a way that the phone app can use.
  
• handles the backend logic of mobile payments for supported agencies and partners. 
  

All that behind the scenes infrastructure to support the millions of active users of the app can easily cost hundreds of thousands of dollars annually just for hosting let alone maintaining and improving it. All so that your "phone app" can be snappy and responsive on a wide array of devices.

[cherrypark]

Loved that Transit was free, and that they are still offering a lower featured free version, but of all the apps out there Transit absolutely earns a value for what it provides on top of those data sources (to say nothing of how seamless it moved you between cities and systems). There is no app that does a better job of integrating transit and multi-modal transport I've found.

I only hope that adding a paid service level will mean they can chase even more ambitious inputs and cities/services like the GRT would do well to just hand the keys over to their capable hands for presenting their data (and making it better).

[KevinL]

Apparently a number of agencies elsewhere have done just that; Transit gets a subsidy from them, and in turn makes a specially branded version of the app for use in their coverage area, and tweaks the design to match their branding as well.

[plam]

Apparently a number of agencies elsewhere have done just that; Transit gets a subsidy from them, and in turn makes a specially branded version of the app for use in their coverage area, and tweaks the design to match their branding as well.

Yeah that's what I was alluding to. Sounds like the Region of Waterloo should also do that, though I don't know what pricing is. I think it's a fairly good use of money and supports a Canadian company.

[danbrotherston]

Apparently a number of agencies elsewhere have done just that; Transit gets a subsidy from them, and in turn makes a specially branded version of the app for use in their coverage area, and tweaks the design to match their branding as well.

Yeah that's what I was alluding to. Sounds like the Region of Waterloo should also do that, though I don't know what pricing is. I think it's a fairly good use of money and supports a Canadian company.

I think Calgary Transit does this. It's a very good use of money, far better than paying eSolutions for some garbage.

[tomh009]

Yeah that's what I was alluding to. Sounds like the Region of Waterloo should also do that, though I don't know what pricing is. I think it's a fairly good use of money and supports a Canadian company.

I think Calgary Transit does this. It's a very good use of money, far better than paying eSolutions for some garbage.

It's far less expensive than developing (and supporting) an equivalent bespoke app, whether built in-house or outsourced. And in the case of GRT, there is no need for them to differentiate themselves from other transit systems, so using the same app makes sense.