Grand River Transit

[tomh009]

And of course, Presto has already moved onto supporting visa and debit cards directly for boarding, something that is, if not world leading, is at least a stand out feature...and something that EasyGO doesn't even have on the radar (I'd be shocked if council even knows it's a thing...since I doubt any
of them are remotely interested in transit), and who the fuck knows how much it will cost us to pay our incredibly incompetent contractor to build.

How would you implement this without Internet connectivity on the buses? With any system?

All because presto wouldn't play by our special rules and bid in the process that we (and we alone) decided was the ONLY way to select a fare payment processor.

Or, to see it from the region's point of view, because Presto refused to consider the customer's (that's the region) requirements and said "it's our way or the highway." If Accenture and Thales had refused to respond to RFPs, they would never have been selected to develop Presto. But now that Metrolinx has Presto, they will refuse to respond to RFPs.

Sole-sourcing government procurement contracts, whatever could possibly go wrong with that?

[danbrotherston]

And of course, Presto has already moved onto supporting visa and debit cards directly for boarding, something that is, if not world leading, is at least a stand out feature...and something that EasyGO doesn't even have on the radar (I'd be shocked if council even knows it's a thing...since I doubt any
of them are remotely interested in transit), and who the fuck knows how much it will cost us to pay our incredibly incompetent contractor to build.

How would you implement this without Internet connectivity on the buses? With any system?

The whole point is that this is neither my job nor my problem. Presto has achieved this. This is the whole point. Whether they achieved that by deferring CC processing till the end of the day and just eating failed transaction costs or by putting the incredibly advanced 5G payment technologies previously only available to pizza and Chinese food delivery people doesn’t matter to me. What matters is that we would have this feature if we used presto.

All because presto wouldn't play by our special rules and bid in the process that we (and we alone) decided was the ONLY way to select a fare payment processor.

Or, to see it from the region's point of view, because Presto refused to consider the customer's (that's the region) requirements and said "it's our way or the highway." If Accenture and Thales had refused to respond to RFPs, they would never have been selected to develop Presto. But now that Metrolinx has Presto, they will refuse to respond to RFPs.

Sole-sourcing government procurement contracts, whatever could possibly go wrong with that?

This kind of adversarial framing harms us (you know, the actual users). If the region had prioritized OUR interests they would have worked to get the best experience for US the ridership rather than the council, bureaucrats, and the most politically powerful citizens who largely do not ride transit.

If that was EasyGO then fine. But since it isn’t, using a process excuse is bullshit. They should have worked with presto because that is what would have delivered the best experience for us the actual people using the system.

Instead they weren’t working for us.

[taylortbb]

Accenture and Thales had refused to respond to RFPs, they would never have been selected to develop Presto. But now that Metrolinx has Presto, they will refuse to respond to RFPs.

Sole-sourcing government procurement contracts, whatever could possibly go wrong with that?

It's totally normal for governments to not bid on each other's projects. The region pays the cities to clear snow from its roads, it doesn't make the cities go through a bidding process against private contractors. When the region decided to purchase LRVs from Metrolinx, it didn't make them bid. I can easily list a dozen other examples.

Responding to a payment system RFP would easily be a full time job for months for 3 FTEs. Metrolinx isn't staffed for that, and it would be silly to do so. Presto isn't a commercial offering, it's a government service.

The region has no problem waiving the RFP process when working with governments (including with Metrolinx for the LRV purchase). For Presto it was nothing but a convenient excuse they could give the public.

[Bytor]

How would you implement this without Internet connectivity on the buses? With any system?

Batching at the end of the day. That's the way PRESTO is implementing credit card and debit tapping. I would speculate that it's partially because of how they have you tap both on and off for the fares-by-distance set up the GO uses, and because the terminals on the buses do not have internet access.

You going into a store and paying for something with a credit card and being able to see that immediately is a modern graft onto the old batch processes that used to tally things up from a literal paper trail that businesses would submit to VISA/MasterCARD/etc… So is the debit card system. The terminals you use at a store, many of them can store transactions if their internet collection is offline and then upload them later. Stripe also has a similar store-and-forward option for their client apps when mobile or wifi data is not available. All of that is all based on those old batch processing paradigms.

[Bytor]

Presto isn't a commercial offering, it's a government service.

Then PRESTO should have been flexible enough to say "OK, we'll implement those fare types for you", or ONgov should be subsidizing PRESTO installations. And I mean actual subsidies, not by making gas tax transfers contingent on adoption.

PRESTO/Metrolinx/ONgov is just as culpable for this as the Regional Municipality of Waterloo is.

[plam]

So in other news I was in Montreal and found out that my opus card can't store tickets between zones A and B (e.g. going to the South Shore via REM). You have to get a special opus card to support that ticket, for some reason. You can get bus tickets for the south shore, but you can't get REM tickets. ?!?!

[Rainrider22]

I'm going to hazard a guess that you work in some sort of engineering related profession, and not anything product or customer related,

I have many years of experience in frontline technical support in addition to my other IT experience of a more engineering bent.

because this post sounds like how the majority of my coworkers think. Yes, we understand how it works and why it works that way (but the general public at larger never will). Yes, once you understand there is a potential 48 hour delay it's not terribly stifling and can be worked around.

But for at least the last decade people think of a "payment cards" of any kind as an instantaneous and usable anywhere. I'd wager over 80% of the population doesn't know and doesn't care to know that payment terminals in shops are internet connected, and so the thought that payment terminals on busses aren't connected but would need to be isn't a logical train of thought for them. Today it's even expected for mobile/popup shops, food trucks, etc. to accept credit and debit payments backed by mobile connections, and most cash only places obviously take a hit.

If you build a product that goes against consumer expectations for technical reasons, that's fine, but you need to be sympathetic to the position you've put your customer in. Have some humility and shame, not anger towards the confused customer (and customer service should reflect that, short of accepting abuse whether verbal or of the system).

You're assuming that I expect people to know. I don't.

I do expect people to be willing to accept some trivial amount education so they can avoid the same problem again. And the explanation I have as to how it works was very abbreviated
and definitely not technical in any way.

I do expect people to treat customer service reps fairly, which RainRider22 did not, by their own words. Hence the YTA judgement. I mean, they think that their call to GRT customer service was an encounter with "GRT management", but is was really just them bullying a CS rep.

Wow..Bytor.were you part of the conversation? You speak like you witnessed it and then.make a huge jump to criticis me. Knowing the conversation is recorded,  and knowing i am taking this further up the chain i was actually very polite with the customer rep.  I acknowledged many times to her that i understand she is the receiving end of.my frustration and didn't design the system.   My frustration was with management or a supervisor not being present to take over the conversation to attempt to mitigate the situation.

I am a father who was trying to help his daughter out with a.situation from a distance.. Perhaps you could try and see things through a different lense..wow..

[danbrotherston]

Accenture and Thales had refused to respond to RFPs, they would never have been selected to develop Presto. But now that Metrolinx has Presto, they will refuse to respond to RFPs.

Sole-sourcing government procurement contracts, whatever could possibly go wrong with that?

It's totally normal for governments to not bid on each other's projects. The region pays the cities to clear snow from its roads, it doesn't make the cities go through a bidding process against private contractors. When the region decided to purchase LRVs from Metrolinx, it didn't make them bid. I can easily list a dozen other examples.

Responding to a payment system RFP would easily be a full time job for months for 3 FTEs. Metrolinx isn't staffed for that, and it would be silly to do so. Presto isn't a commercial offering, it's a government service.

The region has no problem waiving the RFP process when working with governments (including with Metrolinx for the LRV purchase). For Presto it was nothing but a convenient excuse they could give the public.

This is exactly on point. It’s why I’m frustrated anytime anyone, especially folks here repeat it. We especially should see through that BS.

[danbrotherston]

So in other news I was in Montreal and found out that my opus card can't store tickets between zones A and B (e.g. going to the South Shore via REM). You have to get a special opus card to support that ticket, for some reason. You can get bus tickets for the south shore, but you can't get REM tickets. ?!?!

Lol Montreals fare card definitely leaves a lot to be desired.

I hope for a day where my visa is the only fare card I need anywhere.

[Bytor]

Wow..Bytor.were you part of the conversation? You speak like you witnessed it and then.make a huge jump to criticis me. Knowing the conversation is recorded,  and knowing i am taking this further up the chain i was actually very polite with the customer rep.  I acknowledged many times to her that i understand she is the receiving end of.my frustration and didn't design the system.

[quote="Rainrider22" pid="112450" dateline="1703648551"]
My frustration was with management or a supervisor not being present to take over the conversation to attempt to mitigate the situation.

Like I said to you directly,

Did you expect them to reach out with a magic wand and enchant either your daughter's card with the stored value, or the farebox of the next bus with the update for it?

Because that's the only way anybody could have mitigated anything. You need to accept that.

You expecting them to call dispatch and get them to figure out the next bus arriving at stop WXYZ and tell that driver to let your daughter on for free is unreasonable.

Where does it stop? Should they do that for everybody who doesn't understand the technological limitations of the system? If not, who decides who is worthy of that request? Why were you more worthy of having that done for you than anybody else?

Get off your high horse and answer those questions honestly.

I explained that "The System" had no problem taking my money from Visa immediately, so there fore I should be able to utilize a service for which I have paid.

Would you rather I called that "entitlement" rather than bullying?

I ask for a supervisor, she says no supervisor, I ask for the manger, she says no manager. I say, how many people working around you right now (3:15pm on a Wed), She say approx 8. I say so 8 employees working in a government office and no supervision for accountability and safety of the regions employees.... Silence.

That definitely was bullying, trying to sound all officious like that.

Call your dispatch and tell them there will be a cute 14 year old girl at the particular stop and time trying to get on the bus,

So was that, trying to guilt them into doing something they could not do by playing on their emotions about an implied helpless girl child.

I am a father who was trying to help his daughter out with a.situation from a distance.. Perhaps you could try and see things through a different lense..wow..

I don't care how "ermah gerd I'm jerst a father protecting his daughter! Won't SOMEbody THINK of the CHILdren!??!?1?!?" you were in your feels. You were expecting the unreasonable and you were acting like a jerk.

[ac3r]

Not sure why Bytor is so defensive of anything GRT or Keolis for that matter. It's a known fact the customer service blows and the management is even worse. Any regular GRT employee would completely agree as well. There is plenty of anecdotes from GRT staff as well as some news stories about how GRT drivers and other employees have a hard time coming to terms with their managers, bringing up complaints such as safety or being overworked and many others. They are frequently on strike as well and while it's often in regards to pay, they also have a lot of other grievances. It took them a lot of haggling with each other to bother to invest in putting a door beside the driver which was both in reaction to the pandemic but safety in general, as they are often assaulted be it spitting or a physical attack.

Rainrider22 is justified in saying that the customer service is very subpar and that the organization of the agency is a bit disorganized. Others who have been also making the point that our fare card system is junk are also correct because it really is and this is not in comparison to Presto or anything, it is just really mediocre. It's just a really D tier system from the software and the website front end to the physical failures such as payment pillars often malfunctioning, the vending machines being unavailable for whatever reason and simple things like needing to tap your card a bunch of times just so it registers. You can tell there wasn't a lot of money spent on it both in the functionality and the user experience.

Thankfully, as he pointed out, the on the ground staff are usually very good. Some aren't, but most of them are pretty decent to deal with and usually lenient when it comes to letting you on if you don't have the fare as long as you can pay for the next trip. Some may in fact say no sorry, I can't let you on which I think is pretty rude, but it's their bus. GRT really should have a policy where they will almost always let someone on without fare as it is good for customer retention. If you lost a loonie, for example, and they driver left you out in the pouring rain on your way to work, you might think twice about continuing to use it. Ensuring your customers actually want to use your service is an important thing. Such a policy may result in abuse, but there could be ways to mitigate it. For example, they could be required to tap their card and the driver makes a digital note that they have had X amounts of free rides. That wouldn't solve people who may say well I use coins, but whatever. Transit isn't meant to make a lot of money, it's meant to provide the public a service. The most important way you do that is ensure the user experience for each customer is as ideal as it can possibly be. On that note, that's one area GRT and Keolis need to and can continually seek to improve. That includes having customer service employees who are nice (it's not hard to make sure they are...any good business owner is going to know if their staff are not pleasant) AND having a fare card that can immediately update the funds to all buses. Saying the customer wrong and was bullying the GRT employees and being unreasonable in wanting immediate access to the fare credit they have just deposited is lol. There's no excuse as to why that can't work because it's possible, other than our region just wanted to spend as little money as possible.

[Rainrider22]

Wow..Bytor.were you part of the conversation? You speak like you witnessed it and then.make a huge jump to criticis me. Knowing the conversation is recorded,  and knowing i am taking this further up the chain i was actually very polite with the customer rep.  I acknowledged many times to her that i understand she is the receiving end of.my frustration and didn't design the system.

My frustration was with management or a supervisor not being present to take over the conversation to attempt to mitigate the situation.

Like I said to you directly,

Did you expect them to reach out with a magic wand and enchant either your daughter's card with the stored value, or the farebox of the next bus with the update for it?

Because that's the only way anybody could have mitigated anything. You need to accept that.

You expecting them to call dispatch and get them to figure out the next bus arriving at stop WXYZ and tell that driver to let your daughter on for free is unreasonable.

Where does it stop? Should they do that for everybody who doesn't understand the technological limitations of the system? If not, who decides who is worthy of that request? Why were you more worthy of having that done for you than anybody else?

Get off your high horse and answer those questions honestly.

I explained that "The System" had no problem taking my money from Visa immediately, so there fore I should be able to utilize a service for which I have paid.

Would you rather I called that "entitlement" rather than bullying?

I ask for a supervisor, she says no supervisor, I ask for the manger, she says no manager. I say, how many people working around you right now (3:15pm on a Wed), She say approx 8. I say so 8 employees working in a government office and no supervision for accountability and safety of the regions employees.... Silence.

That definitely was bullying, trying to sound all officious like that.

Call your dispatch and tell them there will be a cute 14 year old girl at the particular stop and time trying to get on the bus,

So was that, trying to guilt them into doing something they could not do by playing on their emotions about an implied helpless girl child.

I am a father who was trying to help his daughter out with a.situation from a distance.. Perhaps you could try and see things through a different lense..wow..

I don't care how "ermah gerd I'm jerst a father protecting his daughter! Won't SOMEbody THINK of the CHILdren!??!?1?!?" you were in your feels. You were expecting the unreasonable and you were acting like a jerk.

Bytor, you are so off point it isnt even funny.  I was very polite to the customer service person.  I didnt expect them to figure out what bus was coming next.  I already had all that information, I just wasnt going to post it on a public forum.  It was simple request to pass a message along to the driver.. Your ignorant comments about "think of the children" is very telling about you as a person. Anyways I am done with this topic.  This forum has lost its way from what it used to be.  I find that certain people here are intolerant if you dont agree with their particular opinion or perspective.

[Bytor]

Here's the link to the council meeting where Mathieu Goetzke quickly mentions a mobile app for fall 2024.

https://www.youtube.com/live/3cu-7-3Ut1E...pB&t=15478

[ac3r]

I imagine any new app will be as bad as the last one and probably have its support dropped when they decide it's too much work.

[bravado]

https://www.cambridgetimes.ca/news/water...2b320.html

The Conestoga transit hub is up for a vote at the planning committee on tuesday. Sounds like a lot of people involved don't like the idea of more bus traffic, but seem to find all other traffic fine.