Grand River Transit

[KevinL]

The whiny residents next to Doon have always had very few legs to stand on. It's a college campus, it's been there over half a century, you have to expect what comes with that.

[KevinL]

They're having a launch event at the end of the month for the fleet's first electric bus. https://www.eventbrite.com/e/grt-electri...5337815817

[ac3r]

I wonder how quickly they start taking them out of service for whatever reason. Electric buses are total garbage even in the best case scenario, so I can't imagine these will be that successful...especially since these are from Nova. Back in Europe we've got things like the Dutch company Ebusco or the Polish Solaris buses. Yet even those buses are mostly just a cheap political novelty to score points with the greenfolk. The majority of the fleets are still combustion or hybrid not because switching takes time, but because electric vehicles as a whole are still shitty and tend to be even worse for the environment (and create complex ethical/moral problems) than a traditional bus that burns diesel.

[neonjoe]

I wonder how quickly they start taking them out of service for whatever reason. Electric buses are total garbage even in the best case scenario, so I can't imagine these will be that successful...especially since these are from Nova. Back in Europe we've got things like the Dutch company Ebusco or the Polish Solaris buses. Yet even those buses are mostly just a cheap political novelty to score points with the greenfolk. The majority of the fleets are still combustion or hybrid not because switching takes time, but because electric vehicles as a whole are still shitty and tend to be even worse for the environment (and create complex ethical/moral problems) than a traditional bus that burns diesel.

The TTC is running a couple hundred from both NFI and Nova bus. They also trialed BYD and Proterra. They have over 1000 on order. I’ve ridden their NFI electric model and it was very nice.

[Bytor]

I wonder how quickly they start taking them out of service for whatever reason. Electric buses are total garbage even in the best case scenario, so I can't imagine these will be that successful...especially since these are from Nova. Back in Europe we've got things like the Dutch company Ebusco or the Polish Solaris buses. Yet even those buses are mostly just a cheap political novelty to score points with the greenfolk. The majority of the fleets are still combustion or hybrid not because switching takes time, but because electric vehicles as a whole are still shitty and tend to be even worse for the environment (and create complex ethical/moral problems) than a traditional bus that burns diesel.

The TTC is running a couple hundred from both NFI and Nova bus. They also trialed BYD and Proterra. They have over 1000 on order. I’ve ridden their NFI electric model and it was very nice.

From https://www.plugincanada.ca/electric-bus-faq/

How do e-busses perform in winter?

Better than diesel buses! Diesel engines do not like the cold, they are hard to start and OC Transpo sometimes has to idle many buses overnight to make sure they will start in the morning.  e-Buses will start and work well in the cold.  Range can be reduced by the cold but that is mainly due to heating the cabin.  e-Buses can be fitted with diesel heaters if the battery capacity is needed for range.

So perhaps some misconceptions on ac3r's part, there.

[Bytor]

I wonder how quickly they start taking them out of service for whatever reason. Electric buses are total garbage even in the best case scenario, so I can't imagine these will be that successful...especially since these are from Nova. Back in Europe we've got things like the Dutch company Ebusco or the Polish Solaris buses. Yet even those buses are mostly just a cheap political novelty to score points with the greenfolk. The majority of the fleets are still combustion or hybrid not because switching takes time, but because electric vehicles as a whole are still shitty and tend to be even worse for the environment (and create complex ethical/moral problems) than a traditional bus that burns diesel.

From https://www.plugincanada.ca/electric-bus-faq/ 

Does producing an electric bus emit more GHG than producing a diesel bus?

Yes, but the lifetime emissions are much lower than diesel buses. Although GHG emissions for buses are difficult to measure and compare we can look at cars to compare EVs and fossil fueled vehicles.

Current estimates say that producing an EV emits about 50% – 100% more GHG than a fossil car due to the battery. This impact is quickly off-set by reduced GHG emissions in use. e-Buses are expected to run for 1,000,000 km over their lifetime, off-setting about 1850 tonnes of Co2 emissions.

There is nothing intrinsic about the emissions of battery production. Lead by companies like Tesla and Volkswagen, efforts are underway to decarbonize the battery supply chain so that emissions are reduced or eliminated at each step. You can read about Volkswagen’s efforts here.

When the time comes to buy electric buses, one of the factors that should be rated equally with cost and capabilities is the carbon footprint of bus production.

Aren't there a lot of components used in manufacturing e-buses that are bad for the environment?

The manufacturing process for the bus body is the same whether it is an e-bus or a diesel bus. The environmental impact differences are in the “fuel” source.

Modern EV batteries are very similar to batteries found in cell phones and other household devices. The most common chemistry, Lithium Ion, includes common elements such as lithium, nickel and cobalt. Cobalt has a poor reputation as a lot of supply comes from conflict zones and is not mined responsibly. Steps are being made to reduce the amount of cobalt in lithium batteries and some buses use lithium-Fe which has no cobalt. Tesla and Panasonic are close to eliminating cobalt from their batteries. Canada is rich in all the metals required for battery production, including cobalt.

Unlike lead acid or alkaline batteries, Lithium batteries are non-toxic and can be disposed in a land-fill. Battery recycling is a developing industry and it is now possible to recycle Li ion batteries economically.

Anybody just slightly up-to-date on modern rechargeable batters knows about LiFePo batteries which do not use cobalt, for example.

[plam]

Trucks aren't buses but the driver experience on an electric truck is also way better than on a diesel truck, I've heard.

https://www.intelligentliving.co/this-tr...heres-why/ interviewed a truck driver back in 2020. Way better acceleration and regenerative braking. Also no diesel smell or loud engine.

[ijmorlan]

The majority of the fleets are still combustion or hybrid not because switching takes time, but because electric vehicles as a whole are still shitty and tend to be even worse for the environment (and create complex ethical/moral problems) than a traditional bus that burns diesel.

Wait a second, you’re saying burning diesel doesn’t create complex ethical/moral problems?

The murderous thugs who run Saudi Arabia thank you for your service.

[bravado]

What’s the average lifespan and/or mileage of a city bus? I’m curious how long they’re expected to last for… I don’t want to be an early adopter with public funds but also maybe it’s the right time - no idea!

[neonjoe]

What’s the average lifespan and/or mileage of a city bus? I’m curious how long they’re expected to last for… I don’t want to be an early adopter with public funds but also maybe it’s the right time - no idea!

The oldest buses still active at GRT are 16 years old. These were meant to be retired last year but due to the surge in ridership are still active.

https://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php/Grand_Ri...Bus_Roster

[tomh009]

What’s the average lifespan and/or mileage of a city bus? I’m curious how long they’re expected to last for… I don’t want to be an early adopter with public funds but also maybe it’s the right time - no idea!

Expected to cover more than 1M km ...

[Bytor]

What’s the average lifespan and/or mileage of a city bus? I’m curious how long they’re expected to last for… I don’t want to be an early adopter with public funds but also maybe it’s the right time - no idea!

GRT rebuilds the engines somewhere between 250,000 and 500,000 kilometres (I don't remember the specific mileage), does that once or twice and then sells them off. It takes about 8 years, roughly, to get to the rebuild point.

The major variance is how much the bus gets used. They try to spread it out, but some buses may be liveried for a specific service like iXpress or ION aBRT and thus get more heavily used.

[ac3r]

The majority of the fleets are still combustion or hybrid not because switching takes time, but because electric vehicles as a whole are still shitty and tend to be even worse for the environment (and create complex ethical/moral problems) than a traditional bus that burns diesel.

Wait a second, you’re saying burning diesel doesn’t create complex ethical/moral problems?

The murderous thugs who run Saudi Arabia thank you for your service.

Both things are true.

We don't get a whole lot of oil from the Saudi's, thankfully. We have a good domestic supply and most imports come from the US. Some does come from the Saudi's but not a huge amount. It's mostly imported to the east part of the country due to a lack of pipeline connecting the west to the east. Interestingly, pipelines for domestic or US oil use would even lower emissions since we wouldn't be importing it from so far away and from countries that really don't care about the environment at all. It could also open up potential for us to export oil across the Atlantic which would be great for jobs and our economy.

Unfortunately that will never happen since our leaders are spineless and the left has a tendency to start seething about things.

[danbrotherston]

This thread is hilariously off the rails. I mean I’m the biggest hater of electric cars and suvs but electric buses are great. But the idea that a disadvantage of EV is that they use conflict minerals is hilarious. Oil is one of the top causes of war in the past fifty years.

[cherrypark]

Find a soapbox to protest the batteries in electric Hummers instead. The battery utility per kilometre of person travel in a bus is not even in the same dimension and the idea that it's purely the fuel vs. battery and not the myriad other attributes (bus design benefits, noise reduction) is missing the point.

Glad to see the GRT continuing to update its fleet. Does anyone know what the percentage hybrid is these days? I feel like if there is any argument to have its whether the improvements are better all hybrid first before EV, though that replacement is probably partly just capital replacement cycle working its way through.