Grand River Transit

[tomh009]

Whenever the contract ends with this payment provider we need to move Presto...
Even it's not the best, but their card can be reloaded immediately from the app if you use your phone's NFC with the card to reload it.
This is a limitation of stored value cards....

But not in the use case described above. To quote the Presto web site: "Funds loaded online to your physical PRESTO card will be ready to use in 4 to 7 hours."

Faster than 24 hours, but certainly not immediate.

[danbrotherston]

This really isn't news, and we've talked about this extensively on this forum.

We expect better today, but to be fair, when this was specced (like over 10 years ago) an offline system would have been state of the art.

Of course, if we had gone with presto, it wouldn't be an issue either, you could just use a credit or debit card to board the bus as I do in Toronto.

And yet, we end up with our shitty card...and given bullshit reasons why.

Sorry about your experience Rainrider, the system absolutely sucks, although I can't say that I'd fault customer support (or anyone in your story except the unnamed decision makers who built the system).

[neonjoe]

Whenever the contract ends with this payment provider we need to move Presto...
Even it's not the best, but their card can be reloaded immediately from the app if you use your phone's NFC with the card to reload it.
This is a limitation of stored value cards....

But not in the use case described above. To quote the Presto web site: "Funds loaded online to your physical PRESTO card will be ready to use in 4 to 7 hours."

Faster than 24 hours, but certainly not immediate.

The reload IS immediate if you use the NFC reload feature on the app. It's different than just a standard reload, once the balance is loaded you can use the NFC function and hold the card to the back of the phone, it takes about 5 seconds to write the balance to the card.

[ac3r]

Those payment systems won't work without an Internet connection, either.

Rainrider's daughter wouldn't have had problems were the GRT buses equipped with Internet connections. Regardless of the payment system, this is really something that GRT will need to implement in the near future.

This reminds me...does the 302 BRT have public internet? I know the buses they bought specifically for that route have some extra features like USB charging but I can't recall if they had internet or not. I know they use older buses for that route too so even if they do have internet I guess it wouldn't be consistent. It would be a nice feature to have on all regional buses so long as it didn't result in hearing even more conversations in Hindi or zoomer kids playing mumble rap really loudly.

[Bytor]

Whenever the contract ends with this payment provider we need to move Presto...

That would mean ripping out the fareboxes and kiosks EVREYWHERE in order to install PRESTO-specific hardware.

PRESTO is closed-source. They don't bid, you go to them and say "We want PRESTO", and they tell you how much and maybe an implementation date. No outside hardware is allowed, you must buy it through PRESTO/Accenture.

How wasteful do you think it would be to switch to PRESTO?

Even it's not the best, but their card can be reloaded immediately from the app if you use your phone's NFC with the card to reload it.

An app that can reload cards is planned for Fall 2024.

We bought the EasyGO system from Scheedt & Bachmann, a global provider of such systems. For whatever reason, probably stinginess, the Region chose to not have S&B provide a branded fare app right away, even though they do so for many other systems.

Other S&B-built systems also allow debit cards, credit cards, Google & Apple Pay on watches & phones.

Ironically, S&B is a big supplier to Accenture for PRESTO.

[Bytor]

After my dealing with GRT yesterday, I would hazard a guess they would say "finders keepers, loosers weepers"....

My 14 yr old daughter went to get on the bus yesterday after school, she tapped her card and it didn't have enough money for fare. She calls me and I immediately added more money.  I also added the auto load feature so this doesn't happen again.  I text her and tell her to jump on the next bus. She does and it didn't work.  My daughter is a rule follower so she gets off again and calls me crying.  I sent her a screen shot of the paid receipt for the fare, I explained to her to try the next bus and tell the driver her dad added money and here is the receipt for it. In the mean time, I will call Customer Service.  What a joke that was.  I explained the situation, they said oh, it takes 24 to 48 hours to load onto the card, that's just the way the system is.  I explained that "The System" had no problem taking my money from Visa immediately, so there fore I should be able to utilize a service for which I have paid.  She says, sorry, it doesn't work like that.  I say what is the work around. She says nothing.  I explain that I work out of town, my wife works with patients and cant just get up and leave so we need to figure something out.  I ask for a supervisor, she says no supervisor, I ask for the manger, she says no manager. I say, how many people working around you right now (3:15pm on a Wed), She say approx 8. I say so 8 employees working in a government office and no supervision for accountability and safety of the regions employees.... Silence. I say or do you mean the manager and the supervisor went out for a Christmas lunch, or they are both doing personal business on company time ? again silence. I ask for the director of the area, she say she doesn't know who it is.  I say fine. Call your dispatch and tell them there will be a cute 14 year old girl at the particular stop and time trying to get on the bus, please tell the driver to let her on as a courtesy.  She says no I cant do that.  Just then my daughter texted me to say that she got on the bus. She did what I asked her too and the driver was super kind and polite and said absolutely you can ride....  So at least the boots on the ground people are able to make reasonable decisions, but the people in "Customer Service" not so much... but what do you want when they have absentee leaders...
Sorry,  but that was my first experience with GRT management and it was horrible.. "That's the way the system works"... well your system is fucked. In todays technology everything up dates as soon old visa takes the charge...  How about looking into new technology, pair with GO Transit passes. Create an app that uploads immediately and you just tap your phone... Too many people just doing the same old the same old way. I bet the people in Customer Service don't even use transit......then there is that !!!!

So, while I understand your frustration, this has been explained many times by GRT and by people on many social media platforms, including WRC.

The buses do not have internet connections. How do you expect the loading to go from you using the website and end up at the bus?

When a  bus gets back to the barn at the end of the day, the mechanic giving it the once over sets the farebox to a WiFi AP at the barn. At that point in time it uploads a record of all transactions it did, and downloads a bundle of updates, such as you adding funds to your daughter's card.

The next day when the bus is out on the road and your daughter taps on, the farebox will apply the update to her card and set a flag. The flag is for if your daughter tapos on a second bus so that farebox can see the updated has already been apply and doesn't erroneously add the stored value a second time.

From then on, your daughter can tap her card and have deductions made like normal.

Of course, this obviously only works if you go to the website and add the funds before the bus gets back to the barn.

If you added the funds in the afternoon, but the bus she tries to tap on the next day had been returned to the barn at noon, then it will not have the update for her card. It would need to go back to the barn on more time to get the updates.

That's why GRT says 24 to 48 hours.

It is a technical limitation you cannot solve without having internet connections on the buses and the fareboxes updating constantly. Plus, because of the batch nature of financial processes, even with an internet connection out on the road, the update needsto be formatted and bunded into an update and sent to the farebox. So even then it wouldn't be available right away.

Customer Service can't do bugger all about this, and it is unfair of you to be angry at them for it. YTA, full stop, for that behaviour.

They were exactly right to tell you only "that's how it works" and no manager or supervisor would have been able to do a damn thing about it for you. Did you expect them to reach out with a magic wand and enchant either your daughter's card with the stored value, or the farebox of the next bus with the update for it?

[taylortbb]

Whenever the contract ends with this payment provider we need to move Presto...

That would mean ripping out the fareboxes and kiosks EVREYWHERE in order to install PRESTO-specific hardware.

Would it though? Or would it just require new software and decals? You point out yourself that Scheidt & Bachmann is a major supplier to Presto, many of the Presto machines are the exact same model that EasyGo uses. I'd expect it's just software + decal differences, as many different fare card systems use Scheidt & Bachmann hardware. I'd be very surprised if Presto got custom hardware.

I think the big issue would be that Presto doesn't currently support the combo cash fare box + card reader that we use on the buses. But Metrolinx, aka the Ontario government, owns Presto. Support can be added if the desire is there.

[tomh009]

That would mean ripping out the fareboxes and kiosks EVREYWHERE in order to install PRESTO-specific hardware.

Would it though? Or would it just require new software and decals? You point out yourself that Scheidt & Bachmann is a major supplier to Presto, many of the Presto machines are the exact same model that EasyGo uses. I'd expect it's just software + decal differences, as many different fare card systems use Scheidt & Bachmann hardware. I'd be very surprised if Presto got custom hardware.

Most likely standard hardware with a custom ID in the firmware, which Presto can use to ensure that all hardware was purchased through them. Have seen this scenario many times (in a different industry).

I think the big issue would be that Presto doesn't currently support the combo cash fare box + card reader that we use on the buses. But Metrolinx, aka the Ontario government, owns Presto. Support can be added if the desire is there.

Highlighted the key words. When the region asked for bids, Presto was not interested. At all.

[ijmorlan]

When a  bus gets back to the barn at the end of the day, the mechanic giving it the once over sets the farebox to a WiFi AP at the barn. At that point in time it uploads a record of all transactions it did, and downloads a bundle of updates, such as you adding funds to your daughter's card.

Manually? Can’t it just connect once it receives the WiFi signal? For that matter, couldn’t they install their WiFi network at a few major transfer points and terminals and have most buses pick up updates sooner than end-of-day?

[ac3r]

That would mean ripping out the fareboxes and kiosks EVREYWHERE in order to install PRESTO-specific hardware.

I'll single handedly rip out all of our fare boxes myself if the region agreed to switch to Presto. I bet a lot would be more than happy to lend a hand.

There is absolutely no reason to use our crap system, although I know we're stuck with it. But...Presto just works. There's a reason why it has been adopted by transit agencies servicing millions upon millions upon millions of people in our nations most important cities and it isn't because anyone is putting a gun to the heads of people in oh...Brampton, Ottawa, Toronto, Durham, Mississauga, Hamilton, York and Oakville. They went with it because it makes sense to do so. As said, it just works. It has a lot of good features. It is accepted in basically every important urban centre in Ontario - sans ours, of course.

But in the usual Region of Waterloo fashion: we just had to do it our way. Just like not shovelling sidewalks fronting private residential/commercial/etc businesses is not good. Or how collecting the recyclables of like 630'000 people is best done by having them sort it all into tiny containers rather than just a huge ass wheelie bin that holds a lot of stuff and move on.

[Bytor]

I think the big issue would be that Presto doesn't currently support the combo cash fare box + card reader that we use on the buses. But Metrolinx, aka the Ontario government, owns Presto. Support can be added if the desire is there.

And there's the rub. It isn't. It wasn't there to add the needed fare products when we were looking at vendors, so why would it be there now?

I have zero faith in PRESTO/Accenture.

[Bytor]

But...Presto just works.

No, it doesn't. Every single transit system that has installed PRESTO has had significant problems with it far worse than we have had with EasyGO.

I don't think locals understand that.

Are you angry at EasyGO now? Prepare to be abso-fucking-lutely raging if we were to switch to PRESTO.

Why do you think it took the TTC a decade to install and test it, starting from 2009, with multiple halts? The original contract signing in 2012 was supposed to have PREST available across the board on the TTC by 2016, but that did not happen until after 2019 because of all the problems.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/ttc-bla...ef95a.html

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/ttc-sus...559ec.html

https://www.toronto.com/news/metrolinxs-...1d23b.html

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/p...-1.3795660

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/tor...e31932882/

https://torontoobserver.ca/2019/11/27/pr...g-the-ttc/

https://stevemunro.ca/2019/11/03/toronto...-problems/

There's a reason why it has been adopted by transit agencies servicing millions upon millions upon millions of people in our nations most important cities and it isn't because anyone is putting a gun to the heads of people in oh...Brampton, Ottawa, Toronto, Durham, Mississauga, Hamilton, York and Oakville.

It wasn't so simple for YRT. https://www.york.ca/media/54436/download It literally took years to get the integration with TTC corrected instead of double charging people. PRESTO fare integration across the GTA/905 transit agencies still isn't here yet.

BTW, part of the gas tax transfer payments from 2006 through 2008 were contingent on adopting Presto, AFAIK.

[bravado]

And yet it works today for millions of people and the status quo here doesn’t…

[Bytor]

And yet it works today for millions of people and the status quo here doesn’t…

Presto is still having recurring issues.

[dtkvictim]

So, while I understand your frustration, this has been explained many times by GRT and by people on many social media platforms, including WRC.

The buses do not have internet connections. How do you expect the loading to go from you using the website and end up at the bus?

When a  bus gets back to the barn at the end of the day, the mechanic giving it the once over sets the farebox to a WiFi AP at the barn. At that point in time it uploads a record of all transactions it did, and downloads a bundle of updates, such as you adding funds to your daughter's card.

The next day when the bus is out on the road and your daughter taps on, the farebox will apply the update to her card and set a flag. The flag is for if your daughter tapos on a second bus so that farebox can see the updated has already been apply and doesn't erroneously add the stored value a second time.

From then on, your daughter can tap her card and have deductions made like normal.

Of course, this obviously only works if you go to the website and add the funds before the bus gets back to the barn.

If you added the funds in the afternoon, but the bus she tries to tap on the next day had been returned to the barn at noon, then it will not have the update for her card. It would need to go back to the barn on more time to get the updates.

That's why GRT says 24 to 48 hours.

It is a technical limitation you cannot solve without having internet connections on the buses and the fareboxes updating constantly. Plus, because of the batch nature of financial processes, even with an internet connection out on the road, the update needsto be formatted and bunded into an update and sent to the farebox. So even then it wouldn't be available right away.

Customer Service can't do bugger all about this, and it is unfair of you to be angry at them for it. YTA, full stop, for that behaviour.

They were exactly right to tell you only "that's how it works" and no manager or supervisor would have been able to do a damn thing about it for you. Did you expect them to reach out with a magic wand and enchant either your daughter's card with the stored value, or the farebox of the next bus with the update for it?

I'm going to hazard a guess that you work in some sort of engineering related profession, and not anything product or customer related, because this post sounds like how the majority of my coworkers think. Yes, we understand how it works and why it works that way (but the general public at larger never will). Yes, once you understand there is a potential 48 hour delay it's not terribly stifling and can be worked around.

But for at least the last decade people think of a "payment cards" of any kind as an instantaneous and usable anywhere. I'd wager over 80% of the population doesn't know and doesn't care to know that payment terminals in shops are internet connected, and so the thought that payment terminals on busses aren't connected but would need to be isn't a logical train of thought for them. Today it's even expected for mobile/popup shops, food trucks, etc. to accept credit and debit payments backed by mobile connections, and most cash only places obviously take a hit.

If you build a product that goes against consumer expectations for technical reasons, that's fine, but you need to be sympathetic to the position you've put your customer in. Have some humility and shame, not anger towards the confused customer (and customer service should reflect that, short of accepting abuse whether verbal or of the system).

And yet it works today for millions of people and the status quo here doesn’t…

Well, we don't have millions of people here so you aren't wrong.

But I don't agree that the status quo here (EasyGO) isn't working. It would be nice to have the up to 48 hour delay go away and gain credit card payments, but does that really mean the system isn't working? The only major problem I've experienced was the absolute garbage state that the ION fare machines launched in, but I've been using them lately and they actually seem to work quite well now.

The only complaints are ever see are on this forums, specifically about the delay. Am I missing some major problem everyone is dealing with?