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ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit
(06-05-2020, 07:20 PM)dtkvictim Wrote:
(06-05-2020, 06:50 PM)creative Wrote: Out of curiosity, how should have this been designed? I’m not a civil engineer or have any experience designing LRT systems so I’m just asking!
Just taking wild guesses here (I'm sure engineers should know of better solutions), but either don't have the tracks switch from the side to the center (which basically requires crossing the tracks a small angle), or have dedicated cycling lanes or a MUT outside of the tracks, and never have them cross?

On the Weber street underpass the sidewalk (perhaps just on the south side?) is marked as a shared pathway, so something similar could have been done here. However, I still think that's a really poor solution. On Weber the shared pathway is only for 2 blocks, meaning you have to merge back on to the road. You also get yelled at by both pedestrians and cars for whichever option you choose to take...

The Weber design is indicative of the regional issues...it took years to get signs put up, and the engineers who designed it had this exact conversation:

"This says we need a MUT, what's a MUT?"

"It's like a wide sidewalk I think."

"Wide sidewalk it is."

To be fair, it continues for more than two blocks, it's meant to connect the Spur Line Trail to Water St.
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As I see this is in quotes, I assume this was the actual conversation!
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(06-05-2020, 07:40 PM)creative Wrote: As I see this is in quotes, I assume this was the actual conversation!

It's clear from context that I am being flippant. But as you asked a serious question, I gave you a serious answer on page 1065.
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I’m just trying to educate myself as to how all of these incompetent civil engineers manage to get their degrees! I turn on my tap and clean water Comes out. I flush my toilet and everything magically goes away. We just experienced a major rain storm and the water magically went somewhere. Electricity somehow is delivered to my house.
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(06-05-2020, 07:59 PM)creative Wrote: I’m just trying to educate myself as to how all of these incompetent civil engineers manage to get their degrees! I turn on my tap and clean water Comes out. I flush my toilet and everything magically goes away. We just experienced a major rain storm and the water magically went somewhere. Electricity somehow is delivered to my house.

*sigh*...I see, so when you said you were just asking, you weren't asking, you were saying. And now you are playing stupid.

Congrats on being an unhelpful toxic person.
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You are entitled to your opinion of how things are built but please stop calling these professionally trained engineers incompetent and don’t ever call me stupid again!
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(06-05-2020, 08:07 PM)creative Wrote: You are entitled to your opinion of how things are built but please stop calling these professionally trained engineers incompetent and don’t ever call me stupid again!

I didn’t call you stupid, I said you were playing stupid, because you are pretending to not understand that water and sewage engineering is different from designing cycling infra on roads, and that a person can be competent at one, and not the other.

As for my opinion, I am certainly entitled to an opinion about someone’s technical competence after seeing them act incompetently time after time after time.  I have backed up my opinion very carefully.  I do not take it lightly, even if I occasionally use flippancy to cover my frustration.
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(06-05-2020, 07:17 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(06-05-2020, 06:50 PM)creative Wrote: Out of curiosity, how should have this been designed? I’m not a civil engineer or have any experience designing LRT systems so I’m just asking!

I am not a civil engineer either, but I know of a number different options.

One would be to use a product to fill in the flangeway, there are a few rubber products, which will be depressed by the weight of the LRV, but which fill the flangeway so that a bicycle wheel cannot get stuck in it.

Assuming this is a good solution, this seems simple, and could be retrofitted in after the fact (ie now). And it sounds like the cost would not be high. Is that correct? Might you have link to such a product?
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(06-05-2020, 09:09 PM)tomh009 Wrote:
(06-05-2020, 07:17 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: I am not a civil engineer either, but I know of a number different options.

One would be to use a product to fill in the flangeway, there are a few rubber products, which will be depressed by the weight of the LRV, but which fill the flangeway so that a bicycle wheel cannot get stuck in it.

Assuming this is a good solution, this seems simple, and could be retrofitted in after the fact (ie now). And it sounds like the cost would not be high. Is that correct? Might you have link to such a product?

Unfortunately, I cannot find the site I (and others) sent to the regional engineers years ago. Here's an article mentioning these tramway flanges used in Zurich https://www.streetfilms.org/cyclists-vs-...in-zurich/ , but it is not a link to an english site.

Unfortunately, as I understand it, the price would be very high, it needs to be embedded in the track, it basically replaces the existing embedded rubber...I'll call it a gasket...surrounding the track, as a result, the products I am aware of would require ripping up all the concrete around the tracks...this would be rather expensive. It's possible a different product is available or could be developed to retrofit into the flangeway but I am not aware of any such product.

The best I think could be reasonably accomplished would be something like the top right of page 13 on this document: https://altaplanning.com/wp-content/uplo...o_ALTA.pdf

That could be accomplished with paint and a sign, if we were willing to rework some surface concrete that could be even better.  It's not ideal, the sidewalk is poorly suited as a MUT, it's too narrow, and the intersection is terrible. But that ship has sailed, we are stuck with that unfortunate poor design.  But with a little paint and a sign it could be miles better.  But I don't see that ever happening.  I can't even get the regional staff to put a freaking bag on this bullshit pedestrian signal https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.453664,-8...312!8i6656 which protects peds from all the many drivers driving through the bloody retaining wall.  They just do not care one iota.  And it seems most of our council does not either.
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(06-05-2020, 07:31 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(06-05-2020, 07:20 PM)dtkvictim Wrote: Just taking wild guesses here (I'm sure engineers should know of better solutions), but either don't have the tracks switch from the side to the center (which basically requires crossing the tracks a small angle), or have dedicated cycling lanes or a MUT outside of the tracks, and never have them cross?

On the Weber street underpass the sidewalk (perhaps just on the south side?) is marked as a shared pathway, so something similar could have been done here. However, I still think that's a really poor solution. On Weber the shared pathway is only for 2 blocks, meaning you have to merge back on to the road. You also get yelled at by both pedestrians and cars for whichever option you choose to take...

The Weber design is indicative of the regional issues...it took years to get signs put up, and the engineers who designed it had this exact conversation:

"This says we need a MUT, what's a MUT?"

"It's like a wide sidewalk I think."

"Wide sidewalk it is."

To be fair, it continues for more than two blocks, it's meant to connect the Spur Line Trail to Water St.
Oh, I didn't realize it was more than two blocks, because there is no visual indication it's not just a sidewalk beyond that point (there's a sign, but the sidewalk design just looks like a sidewalk). Looking at Google maps now... I was also never certain if only the South/West side was a MUT, or both sides, since they look the same. Based on the signs, I'm assuming just the South/West side is. If you are a cyclist taking Weber to Waterloo, what's the proper etiquette for

  1. Getting from Weber to the MUT at Water? Do you make a left turn onto the sidewalk, or dismount on the right side and cross as a pedestrian twice?
  2. Crossing the signalized intersections, do you have to dismount when it's a MUT?
I never wanted to bother with Weber when cycling to work, so I took Duke for most of it. Although, the Duke and Victoria light doesn't change for cyclists, so I eventually gave up and just started walking to work...
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(06-05-2020, 09:38 PM)dtkvictim Wrote:
(06-05-2020, 07:31 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: The Weber design is indicative of the regional issues...it took years to get signs put up, and the engineers who designed it had this exact conversation:

"This says we need a MUT, what's a MUT?"

"It's like a wide sidewalk I think."

"Wide sidewalk it is."

To be fair, it continues for more than two blocks, it's meant to connect the Spur Line Trail to Water St.
Oh, I didn't realize it was more than two blocks, because there is no visual indication it's not just a sidewalk beyond that point (there's a sign, but the sidewalk design just looks like a sidewalk). Looking at Google maps now... I was also never certain if only the South/West side was a MUT, or both sides, since they look the same. Based on the signs, I'm assuming just the South/West side is. If you are a cyclist taking Weber to Waterloo, what's the proper etiquette for

  1. Getting from Weber to the MUT at Water? Do you make a left turn onto the sidewalk, or dismount on the right side and cross as a pedestrian twice?
  2. Crossing the signalized intersections, do you have to dismount when it's a MUT?
I never wanted to bother with Weber when cycling to work, so I took Duke for most of it. Although, the Duke and Victoria light doesn't change for cyclists, so I eventually gave up and just started walking to work...

Yup...it's pretty terrible.

Generally when I bike, I will come up Water, turn left into the parking lot (I suspect this is less surprising to drivers than trying to make a left turn onto the sidewalk, and it saves some time). I merge onto the MUT/sidewalk and proceed on the west side of Weber. I won't stay publicly whether I dismount to cross, but sufficies to say that I find it ridiculous that the regional engineers did not provide for a crossing for the users of the MUT, and that I don't believe dismounting improves safety, if drivers are going to turn without looking, I don't believe it matters whether you are on a bike or not, the Victoria St. corner is so poorly designed for non-motor vehicle users anyway.

It is sure is a shame that you were forced by the poor infrastructure in the region to give up cycling to work Sad.
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(06-05-2020, 09:59 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(06-05-2020, 09:38 PM)dtkvictim Wrote: Oh, I didn't realize it was more than two blocks, because there is no visual indication it's not just a sidewalk beyond that point (there's a sign, but the sidewalk design just looks like a sidewalk). Looking at Google maps now... I was also never certain if only the South/West side was a MUT, or both sides, since they look the same. Based on the signs, I'm assuming just the South/West side is. If you are a cyclist taking Weber to Waterloo, what's the proper etiquette for

  1. Getting from Weber to the MUT at Water? Do you make a left turn onto the sidewalk, or dismount on the right side and cross as a pedestrian twice?
  2. Crossing the signalized intersections, do you have to dismount when it's a MUT?
I never wanted to bother with Weber when cycling to work, so I took Duke for most of it. Although, the Duke and Victoria light doesn't change for cyclists, so I eventually gave up and just started walking to work...

Yup...it's pretty terrible.

Generally when I bike, I will come up Water, turn left into the parking lot (I suspect this is less surprising to drivers than trying to make a left turn onto the sidewalk, and it saves some time). I merge onto the MUT/sidewalk and proceed on the west side of Weber. I won't stay publicly whether I dismount to cross, but sufficies to say that I find it ridiculous that the regional engineers did not provide for a crossing for the users of the MUT, and that I don't believe dismounting improves safety, if drivers are going to turn without looking, I don't believe it matters whether you are on a bike or not, the Victoria St. corner is so poorly designed for non-motor vehicle users anyway.

It is sure is a shame that you were forced by the poor infrastructure in the region to give up cycling to work Sad.
Coming up Water I would definitely do that as well. I was more so wondering if you were already on Weber, what the planners intended for cyclists to do in order to get to the MUT.

And yes, Weber/Victoria is a terrifying intersection. Once I started walking for my commute, I walked through it 2 times a day as it was the shortest way (sometimes 4 times if I want back downtown for lunch). If I was still working there, I think getting hit would be an inevitability. I already had to actively avoid being hit multiple times.

Oddly enough (and more on topic to ION interacting with intersections), the next worst intersection I walked through was Water/Duke, for some reason. I think it might have to do with how the crosswalk to the east of Water is seemingly randomly set back a few meters, making visibility more difficult for cars (not that it's a good excuse for the drivers). This photos shows the interaction I had most often:

[Image: dcDvz5O.gif]
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(06-05-2020, 10:32 PM)dtkvictim Wrote:
(06-05-2020, 09:59 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: Yup...it's pretty terrible.

Generally when I bike, I will come up Water, turn left into the parking lot (I suspect this is less surprising to drivers than trying to make a left turn onto the sidewalk, and it saves some time). I merge onto the MUT/sidewalk and proceed on the west side of Weber. I won't stay publicly whether I dismount to cross, but sufficies to say that I find it ridiculous that the regional engineers did not provide for a crossing for the users of the MUT, and that I don't believe dismounting improves safety, if drivers are going to turn without looking, I don't believe it matters whether you are on a bike or not, the Victoria St. corner is so poorly designed for non-motor vehicle users anyway.

It is sure is a shame that you were forced by the poor infrastructure in the region to give up cycling to work Sad.
Coming up Water I would definitely do that as well. I was more so wondering if you were already on Weber, what the planners intended for cyclists to do in order to get to the MUT.

And yes, Weber/Victoria is a terrifying intersection. Once I started walking for my commute, I walked through it 2 times a day as it was the shortest way (sometimes 4 times if I want back downtown for lunch). If I was still working there, I think getting hit would be an inevitability. I already had to actively avoid being hit multiple times.

Oddly enough (and more on topic to ION interacting with intersections), the next worst intersection I walked through was Water/Duke, for some reason. I think it might have to do with how the crosswalk to the east of Water is seemingly randomly set back a few meters, making visibility more difficult for cars (not that it's a good excuse for the drivers). This photos shows the interaction I had most often:

[Image: dcDvz5O.gif]


Heh, in my opinion you vastly overestimate the thought planners put into their cycling infra. I don't think any planner thought anything about how any cyclist could make it through any part of their infra along Weber. Some places have more thought put in, but Weber is especially poorly designed even by regional standards.

As for me personally, I wouldn't be coming up Weber, I've ridden on it a few times, but I wouldn't again if I could avoid it. If I had too, I'd probably be on the sidewalk, which is curbfaced, narrow and poorly sloped, rather bumpy, and too busy with pedestrians to safely ride on, so frankly, none too safe either, but I'd just continue on the sidewalk and cross at the next red light.

Yes, a number of the ION intersections are particularly poor for pedestrians which...seems problematic for a mass transit system.  The one in question is particularly strange though, I'm not sure why the crosswalk is set back so far. Often they do so in order to reduce crossing distances (a laudable goal) in the face of immense and unnecessary turning radii (I can think of an easier way to solve the crossing distances), however that intersection doesn't have such problematic turning radii, so the crosswalk could be brought forward, I have no idea why it wasn't.

The other reason I've heard is so that right turning traffic approaches the crosswalk from a more perpandicular angle (which only works if the turning radii aren't too wide) so visibility is better, but I'm not aware of any regional engineers using this as a reason, this is more from the Dutch CROW manual. As is, it simply causes a detour for pedestrians (or more specifically, pedestrians who are not physically able enough to walk up the barrier curb).
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(06-05-2020, 08:02 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(06-05-2020, 07:59 PM)creative Wrote: I’m just trying to educate myself as to how all of these incompetent civil engineers manage to get their degrees! I turn on my tap and clean water Comes out. I flush my toilet and everything magically goes away. We just experienced a major rain storm and the water magically went somewhere. Electricity somehow is delivered to my house.

*sigh*...I see, so when you said you were just asking, you weren't asking, you were saying. And now you are playing stupid.

Congrats on being an unhelpful toxic person.

Dan, I think you really need to learn how to chill with other members. Just saying that this is supposed to be a friendly place for people to come to. We can have our disagreements. We can have our opinions. But calling people toxic or stupid (playing stupid) is not helpful here at all.
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(06-05-2020, 07:59 PM)creative Wrote: I’m just trying to educate myself as to how all of these incompetent civil engineers manage to get their degrees! I turn on my tap and clean water Comes out. I flush my toilet and everything magically goes away. We just experienced a major rain storm and the water magically went somewhere. Electricity somehow is delivered to my house.

I've just reported this post. This is garbage. Moderators, please address this repeated and constant trolling.
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