The COVID-19 pandemic

[ac3r]

I’m curious what you mean by “religious or cultural reasons”. Are there any bona fide cultures which have any sort of prohibition on vaccines?

The more I think about this the more I think that vaccination in accordance with public health guidelines should be a condition of employment for a huge range of jobs, including but not limited to anything medical or quasi-medical (e.g. nursing home workers). And to be honest I’m really not interested in the reasons why people in those occupations may be hesitant. They may be hesitant to follow all sorts of other procedures and rules related to their jobs, but we don’t entertain those objections as worth endangering the lives of their patients.

There are. I don't know of any that are strictly against them (as in it's written into their beliefs), but there are some that err on the side of caution or hold some objections. The Catholic Church accepts they have value, but state that if you can find an alternative, you should. I believe that many Mennonites also think the same way as well. Here's a bit of info on it from The College of Physicians in Philadelphia: https://www.historyofvaccines.org/conten...accination

Vaccines are usually required for certain jobs, especially in health care. Most long term care homes and hospitals will not employ you without proof of vaccinations. Depending on whether this remains endemic or not, I think we could see that becoming a mandatory requirement for employment in such places (though, oddly, annual flu vaccines aren't and yet that can kill people as well). Education may also be a field they make it mandatory in.

[jeffster]

I don't actually believe this to be true. Yeah there are a good portion of idiots out there who are vehemently anti-vaccination, most people are rational and want to live a healthy, normal life. There are some groups that are reluctant to get it for different reasons - Indigenous, people of colour those with religious or cultural reasons - but I hope that when they see a huge portion of this country get it, they might reconsider. Some experts believe this virus will become endemic and be with us for good. Inevitably, this pandemic will end, but the virus could still circulate around enough to make it a seasonal thing. If people end up continually catching this virus, develop a disease and land themselves in the hospital they're probably going to stop being so hesitant.

I’m curious what you mean by “religious or cultural reasons”. Are there any bona fide cultures which have any sort of prohibition on vaccines?

The more I think about this the more I think that vaccination in accordance with public health guidelines should be a condition of employment for a huge range of jobs, including but not limited to anything medical or quasi-medical (e.g. nursing home workers). And to be honest I’m really not interested in the reasons why people in those occupations may be hesitant. They may be hesitant to follow all sorts of other procedures and rules related to their jobs, but we don’t entertain those objections as worth endangering the lives of their patients.

The Region of Waterloo sent out a handout to households. It stated, amount other things, that the vaccine contained no gelatin (Muslims, Jews), blood (Muslims, Jews (I think) some Christian religions), no baby products (many different groups), no preservatives (my kid will get autism) and no microchips (conspiracy theorists).

Despite all that, you will still have people who don’t trust the system. You’ll still get those that fear the needle (just fear). You’ll also get the ‘my body, my choice’ people.

What I think that is being done wrong though, is Trudeau putting up hard numbers (75%) for vaccinations before we get back to normal. The federal government has already done a poor job at relaying information to PHU’s, doctors, the general public. And now by putting in hard numbers, we’re becoming more of a dictatorship. And, people will rebel against this. And by rebel, they won’t get the vaccine.

[danbrotherston]

I don't actually believe this to be true. Yeah there are a good portion of idiots out there who are vehemently anti-vaccination, most people are rational and want to live a healthy, normal life. There are some groups that are reluctant to get it for different reasons - Indigenous, people of colour those with religious or cultural reasons - but I hope that when they see a huge portion of this country get it, they might reconsider. Some experts believe this virus will become endemic and be with us for good. Inevitably, this pandemic will end, but the virus could still circulate around enough to make it a seasonal thing. If people end up continually catching this virus, develop a disease and land themselves in the hospital they're probably going to stop being so hesitant.

I’m curious what you mean by “religious or cultural reasons”. Are there any bona fide cultures which have any sort of prohibition on vaccines?

The more I think about this the more I think that vaccination in accordance with public health guidelines should be a condition of employment for a huge range of jobs, including but not limited to anything medical or quasi-medical (e.g. nursing home workers). And to be honest I’m really not interested in the reasons why people in those occupations may be hesitant. They may be hesitant to follow all sorts of other procedures and rules related to their jobs, but we don’t entertain those objections as worth endangering the lives of their patients.

There are more than just "my culture is against this" problems...there are "my culture doesn't trust doctors" problems...and those are often well founded in "historically doctors used my people as human guineapigs".

The good news is these kinds of vaccine hesitant people are relatively easy to bring into the fold. You just need to establish trust with them by righting all historical and current wrongs perpetrated against minorities by the majority. Relatively being the key word, it's easy when compared with convincing people who are convinced you are trying to microchip them.

I mostly concur with requiring vaccination for certain activities or professions but I am also extremely cognizant of the fact that certain people have good reason that they may be hesitant to trust healthcare professionals, and how such requirements would affect them. And while I am being slightly sarcastic about it being easy, there are absolutely things we can do to help establish trust with hesitant people.

As for the loonie anti-vaxxers...I couldn't care less what they think.

[ijmorlan]

There are. I don't know of any that are strictly against them (as in it's written into their beliefs), but there are some that err on the side of caution or hold some objections. The Catholic Church accepts they have value, but state that if you can find an alternative, you should. I believe that many Mennonites also think the same way as well. Here's a bit of info on it from The College of Physicians in Philadelphia: https://www.historyofvaccines.org/conten...accination

Thanks for the link. Neither of the two specific religious objections mentioned in the article is what I would consider a bona fide objection to vaccination per se.

It says that “the Catholic Church … asserts, however, that its members should seek alternatives, when available, to vaccines that are made using cell lines derived from aborted fetuses”. In other words, the Catholic Church objects to specific vaccines based on their anti-choice philosophy; they have no problem with vaccination in general, and even with the problem vaccines they say members should seek alternatives “when available”. So their opposition to the use of certain specific vaccines is a bona fide religious objection, but they don’t have an objection to vaccination itself.

As to the Christian Scientists, Christianity as a whole is not opposed to vaccination, and the existence of a few confused people within the larger body does not change that fact.

Suspicion and mistrust is another matter. Personally, I believe that people of all cultures are smart enough to realize that what was done in Tuskegee to a group of Black men ending almost 50 years ago (i.e., further in the past than the total duration of the study) has no connection to vaccines which are being administered to people of every colour and ethnic origin.

Ironically I think clear employment rules around vaccination would go a long way to helping clear up hesitancy: it’s easy to be hesitant when it’s just an individual choice with no immediate consequences; it’s quite another matter to choose to leave one’s employment over the issue. And seeing employees of all races being vaccinated might help with people in some communities who are initially apprehensive.

Vaccines are usually required for certain jobs, especially in health care. Most long term care homes and hospitals will not employ you without proof of vaccinations. Depending on whether this remains endemic or not, I think we could see that becoming a mandatory requirement for employment in such places (though, oddly, annual flu vaccines aren't and yet that can kill people as well). Education may also be a field they make it mandatory in.

I think it should be mandatory in every field in which people are forced to interact with the employees. So anybody in any way associated with any sort of incarceration or arrest situation: police, prison guards, etc.; definitely retirement homes and the like; even postsecondary educational institutions. People simply do not have a right to impose their factually incorrect beliefs about vaccine safety on the rest of the population.

There can also be differences between vaccines. The measles vaccine needs to be pretty much universal; but if somebody opts out of the flu vaccine because they tend to feel nasty after taking it, then that could be OK depending on the nature of their employment. So maybe for the flu vaccine one fills out an exemption form describing in a couple of sentences why one is opting out, but for the measles vaccine one would need to be referred by one’s doctor to an oversight board in order to have an exemption recorded.

[tomh009]

I’m curious what you mean by “religious or cultural reasons”. Are there any bona fide cultures which have any sort of prohibition on vaccines?

There are. I don't know of any that are strictly against them (as in it's written into their beliefs), but there are some that err on the side of caution or hold some objections. The Catholic Church accepts they have value, but state that if you can find an alternative, you should. I believe that many Mennonites also think the same way as well. Here's a bit of info on it from The College of Physicians in Philadelphia: https://www.historyofvaccines.org/conten...accination

Religious, in some cases, yes. But cultural?

[tomh009]

10-day averages for key regions in Ontario, plus the weekly trend as of 2021-05-23 (posting this every two days).

Region	Cases today	per 100K	10-day average	per 100K	Weekly trend
Peel	326	23.6	462	33.4	-34%
Hamilton	87	15.0	112	19.3	-8%
Toronto	455	15.5	552	18.8	-32%
Durham	96	14.9	119	18.5	-25%
York	173	15.6	173	15.6	-31%
Middlesex-London	45	11.1	56	13.9	+4%
Brant	13	9.6	17	12.7	-29%
Halton	50	9.1	70	12.7	-17%
Niagara	43	9.6	53	11.7	-24%
Windsor-Essex	51	13.1	42	10.8	-6%
Waterloo	59	9.5	60	9.7	-7%
Wellington-Dufferin-Guelph	28	10.3	26	9.7	+30%
Ottawa	92	9.2	87	8.7	-10%
Simcoe-Muskoka	26	4.8	47	8.7	-16%
Huron Perth	8	8.2	8	8.4	-30%
Lambton	13	9.9	9	6.8	-16%
Southwestern Ontario	8	4.0	13	6.4	-33%
Eastern Ontario	4	2.0	12	6.1	-51%
Kingston Frontenac	7	3.4	7	3.5	-34%
Northwestern		.0	3	3.4	-47%
Chatham-Kent	1	.9	3	2.8	-78%
Leeds, Grenville & Lanark	1	.6	4	2.1	-1%
Ontario total					-24%

[danbrotherston]

....

Suspicion and mistrust is another matter. Personally, I believe that people of all cultures are smart enough to realize that what was done in Tuskegee to a group of Black men ending almost 50 years ago (i.e., further in the past than the total duration of the study) has no connection to vaccines which are being administered to people of every colour and ethnic origin.

Ironically I think clear employment rules around vaccination would go a long way to helping clear up hesitancy: it’s easy to be hesitant when it’s just an individual choice with no immediate consequences; it’s quite another matter to choose to leave one’s employment over the issue. And seeing employees of all races being vaccinated might help with people in some communities who are initially apprehensive.
....

The Tuskegee incident is only the most extreme example--and an easy one to evoke, but bias in medicine continues to this day. Even John Oliver did a (US focused) piece on it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TATSAHJK...eekTonight

[tomh009]

SUNDAY 2021-05-23

Waterloo Region reported 54 new cases for today (10.9% of the active cases) and two more for yesterday for 47; 392 new cases for the week (-6), averaging 11.0% of active cases. 476 active cases, -51 in the last seven days.

Next testing report on Tuesday.

Next vaccination report on Monday.

Ontario reported 1,691 new cases today with a seven-day average of 1,878 (-73). 2,458 recoveries and 15 deaths translated to a decrease of 782 active cases and a new total of 20,672. -5,984 active cases for the week and 129 deaths (18 per day). 31,227 tests with a positivity rate of 5.42%. The positivity rate is averaging 5.86% for the past seven days, compared to 6.62% for the preceding seven.

693 patients in ICU (-13 today, -92 for the week).

140,330 doses of vaccine administered, with a seven-day average at 142,970. At this pace, the dose count will reach 70% of the provincial population on 2021-06-05 (+0 days).

• 326 cases in Peel: 23.6 per 100K
  
• 173 cases in York: 15.6 per 100K
  
• 455 cases in Toronto: 15.5 per 100K
  
• 87 cases in Hamilton: 15.0 per 100K
  
• 96 cases in Durham: 14.9 per 100K
  
• 51 cases in Windsor-Essex: 13.1 per 100K
  
• 45 cases in Middlesex-London: 11.1 per 100K
  
• 28 cases in Wellington-Dufferin-Guelph: 10.3 per 100K
  
• 13 cases in Lambton: 9.9 per 100K
  
• 43 cases in Niagara: 9.6 per 100K
  
• 13 cases in Brant: 9.6 per 100K
  
• 59 cases in Waterloo: 9.5 per 100K (based on provincial reporting)
  
• 92 cases in Ottawa: 9.2 per 100K
  
• 50 cases in Halton: 9.1 per 100K
  
• 8 cases in Huron Perth: 8.2 per 100K
  
• 26 cases in Simcoe-Muskoka: 4.8 per 100K
  
• 8 cases in Southwestern Ontario: 4.0 per 100K
  
• 7 cases in Kingston Frontenac: 3.4 per 100K
  

[ac3r]

Religious, in some cases, yes. But cultural?

Yes. Not cultural in the traditional sense of the word, nor in the sense that it's part of the cultural belief. Perhaps it's more accurate to say subcultural...? Ranging from anti-vaccinators, the far right, new age health freaks. They all adhere to cultural niches.

Arguably, Indigenous cultures are hesitant as well. We have a lot of our people who were initially hesitant to be vaccinated or still are, due to what white people did to us in the past.

[danbrotherston]

Religious, in some cases, yes. But cultural?

Yes. Not cultural in the traditional sense of the word, nor in the sense that it's part of the cultural belief. Perhaps it's more accurate to say subcultural...? Ranging from anti-vaccinators, the far right, new age health freaks. They all adhere to cultural niches.

Arguably, Indigenous cultures are hesitant as well. We have a lot of our people who were initially hesitant to be vaccinated or still are, due to what white people did to us in the past.

I mean the question of what is "culture" vs. what is an individual personality quirk is pretty philosophical. But you're definitely right that alternative health folks are probably comfortably on the culture side of that equation.

[tomh009]

Arguably, Indigenous cultures are hesitant as well. We have a lot of our people who were initially hesitant to be vaccinated or still are, due to what white people did to us in the past.

Is there any data specifically for vaccinations of indigenous communities (in Canada)? I know efforts have been made to provide vaccines to isolated communities -- which are predominantly indigenous -- and it seems that there has been some decent progress there. This press release is almost a month old, but the vaccination reach here was already better than the general population is today:
https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/go...78977.html

Based on Statistics Canada's 2020 population projections, over 59% of adults in First Nations communities, as well as over 72% of adults living in the territories, have received at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine.

[jeffster]

Arguably, Indigenous cultures are hesitant as well. We have a lot of our people who were initially hesitant to be vaccinated or still are, due to what white people did to us in the past.

Is there any data specifically for vaccinations of indigenous communities (in Canada)? I know efforts have been made to provide vaccines to isolated communities -- which are predominantly indigenous -- and it seems that there has been some decent progress there. This press release is almost a month old, but the vaccination reach here was already better than the general population is today:
https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/go...78977.html

Based on Statistics Canada's 2020 population projections, over 59% of adults in First Nations communities, as well as over 72% of adults living in the territories, have received at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine.

I'd take the with a grain of salt; considering they were given priority from the get go. The territories all have enough vaccine for every single person yet aren't even at the 75% Trudeau and NWT wants to open things up, for example.

Could be various reasons why that is, but there does seem to be hesitancy. At least according to this article, they are having issues with uptake:

https://www.nnsl.com/yellowknifer/75-per...-question/

[tomh009]

I'd take the with a grain of salt; considering they were given priority from the get go. The territories all have enough vaccine for every single person yet aren't even at the 75% Trudeau and NWT wants to open things up, for example.

Could be various reasons why that is, but there does seem to be hesitancy. At least according to this article, they are having issues with uptake:

https://www.nnsl.com/yellowknifer/75-per...-question/

I'm not talking about opening, just about the acceptance of vaccines in the indigenous communities.

The only uptake challenge the NSL article mentions is that the vaccination rate is lower among young people. I believe that will be the case almost everywhere in the world: the young always feel invincible.

[ijmorlan]

Religious, in some cases, yes. But cultural?

Yes. Not cultural in the traditional sense of the word, nor in the sense that it's part of the cultural belief. Perhaps it's more accurate to say subcultural...? Ranging from anti-vaccinators, the far right, new age health freaks. They all adhere to cultural niches.

Arguably, Indigenous cultures are hesitant as well. We have a lot of our people who were initially hesitant to be vaccinated or still are, due to what white people did to us in the past.

Sidebar: I don’t actually recognize a distinction between “cultural” and “religious”; marking a cultural practice as religious shouldn’t privilege it over practices that are not so marked, and practices which are not marked as religious are just as worthy of respect and accommodation as those that are.

As to “cultural” objections to vaccination, the modern anti-vaccinators all believe incorrectly that the vaccines are dangerous and/or ineffective. They believe they have a scientific objection. This is quite different from their culture/religion forbidding use of vaccines. Of course there is a strong cultural component to these beliefs; each person does not come up with their own conclusions entirely separate from those around them (where “around” has a rather complicated definition involving whom they interact with and in what capacity, rather than strictly geographical).

Even if the objection does rise to the level of a religious/cultural objection, I would still argue that some small group that arose just recently isn’t a bona fide world culture. Essentially, the whole concept of vaccination is too new for a valid cultural or religious objection (to the concept, not the implementation) to exist. This doesn’t mean I oppose people forming new identities, just that new identities need to form within the modern context and subject to modern constraints.

To take an example, consider RCMP headgear. It’s well established at this point that Sikhs are permitted to wear a turban instead of the standard uniform cap (and incidentally, I think they look very sharp, both in terms of just looking good and in terms of providing a visual reminder of how people from many cultures can co-exist and work together in this country). But I would hope that if a Pastafarian asked to serve in their colander they would be told to quit joshing around and put on the standard cap.

[ijmorlan]

The Tuskegee incident is only the most extreme example--and an easy one to evoke, but bias in medicine continues to this day. Even John Oliver did a (US focused) piece on it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TATSAHJK...eekTonight

Yes, I know that incident isn’t an isolated one. I’m thinking right now of Joyce Echaquan, who died in hospital but left a recording of caregivers making fun of and insulting her. A true hero, who brought into the light truly reprehensible behaviour. Will it lead to the required changes? I don’t know.

But that being said, vaccines are obviously being given out to all; Black or Indigenous (or whatever) populations are not being singled out to take the vaccines first so we can see what happens, and then make corrections before giving them to the privileged white population. At this point, with many millions of doses having been administered and an insignificant number of adverse reactions, continued belief that the vaccines are some sort of plot is absurd, no matter one’s cultural background. And I believe that people of all cultures are capable of recognizing this.

In an employment situation, where I’m suggesting many employees should be required to be vaccinated, this would be all employees: so if one person is somewhat hesitant, they might see their colleague from a different ancestry having their shot too, which should help them to realize that it is not a racist plot.