GO Transit

[Bytor]

GO/GRT fare integration should be seamless, but it never will be as long as we're not on Presto.

It could be, though. We both use the same NXP DESfire EV1 or EV2 cards. I'm not sure which one, exactly, but the they both work the same way.

The flash memory on the card is partitioned analogously like a hard drive, and each partition is called an application. Each partition/application can contain multiple "files" of varying structure, optimised for different purposes. Each application has two password key, read and read+write, and two for the whole card as well. With the whole card passwords you can you can list, create and delete applications but you cannot read the application's files. With just an application password you can access that application's files and nothing else. I believe you need the application write password to change it's, and not the whole card write password.

So all it really takes is a software change at customer service stations and kiosks to enable multiple organisations to use the same physical card.

I take my EasyGO card to the customer service centre at Benton and King and they zap ip to ass a GO transit application and a MiWay application, both with agreed upon preliminary passwords. Then when I tap at a GO Presto terminal it rewrites the GO application passwords to the proper ones and sets up the files. When I get off GO and then get onto a MiWay bus, that fare box changes the passwords on the MiWay application to the proper ones and initialises the MiWay files.

Obviously the integrations can go much deeper by sharing read passwords, or even the write ones, but I leave that to your imagination, but simply sharing one physical card as if it were three virtual cards would be relatively easy without requiring complex accounting ad payment schemes between agencies.

[dtkvictim]

GO/GRT fare integration should be seamless, but it never will be as long as we're not on Presto.

It could be, though. We both use the same NXP DESfire EV1 or EV2 cards. I'm not sure which one, exactly, but the they both work the same way.

The flash memory on the card is partitioned analogously like a hard drive, and each partition is called an application. Each partition/application can contain multiple "files" of varying structure, optimised for different purposes. Each application has two password key, read and read+write, and two for the whole card as well. With the whole card passwords you can you can list, create and delete applications but you cannot read the application's files. With just an application password you can access that application's files and nothing else. I believe you need the application write password to change it's, and not the whole card write password.

So all it really takes is a software change at customer service stations and kiosks to enable multiple organisations to use the same physical card.

I take my EasyGO card to the customer service centre at Benton and King and they zap ip to ass a GO transit application and a MiWay application, both with agreed upon preliminary passwords. Then when I tap at a GO Presto terminal it rewrites the GO application passwords to the proper ones and sets up the files. When I get off GO and then get onto a MiWay bus, that fare box changes the passwords on the MiWay application to the proper ones and initialises the MiWay files.

Obviously the integrations can go much deeper by sharing read passwords, or even the write ones, but I leave that to your imagination, but simply sharing one physical card as if it were three virtual cards would be relatively easy without requiring complex accounting ad payment schemes between agencies.

I just checked mine, it is the V1 FYI. It's been a couple years since I looked into it, but it's frustrating and unreasonable that the data is encrypted and unreadable by the card owner. I wanted to using an existing app or write a quick one myself to display my balance, but it's impossible with the way our card are currently configured. This is not an issue with other transit cards around the world. The transit cards in Japan even store some trip history (source and destination, cost of trip).

Japan is also an example of many disparate cards and systems that have come together under a single interoperable network. I don't know just how different the systems were from the start, and what the scale of software and hardware replacements were, but it proves that it's possible.

[danbrotherston]

So things are better, but we spent a lot of money, and went through a lot of pain in order to have a system which isn't compatible with the rest of the province.

Just one in a long line of bad decisions our government (and staff) has made.

Given that Presto not only did not bid on RFP, they also outright refused to add the features that GRT required even if the Region had paid them, I'm confused as to why people still think it was some huge debacle that we don't have Presto.

Not to mention that every Presto installation has had their own significant issues, usually far worse than what we went through with EasyGO.

The features we requested and the RFP process is not some commandments handed down from on high.  *WE CHOSE* them...

And we chose them KNOWING that Presto wouldn't qualify if we did.

Other cities adopted presto, we are not special, no matter how much GRT staff proclaim we are. We are not the only city with a transit system, with this exact fare structure and with colleges with student passes.

Despite all this we added requirements that Presto could not meet and choose a process the would not participate in.

We knowingly (and possibly intentionally) excluded them.

Blaming the process that WE created is pretty transparent bullshit...it's the kind that lead people to hate their governments.

As for presto having issues, I'm sure they did. But at the end of those issues, there is a benefit to choosing presto.  And while the UX on the Presto site is also mediocre, it is nowhere near as bad our farecard garbage.

[Bob_McBob]

I'm also not buying the whole "Presto didn't respond to an RFP and we have unique customer needs" line anymore. The RFP thing is just ridiculous and could presumably have been resolved with some basic communication. The "unique customer needs" they list are "the ability to accept payment on MobilityPLUS vehicles, the ability to integrate a U-Pass program and the ability to issue machine readable paper tickets from fare vending machines". These things are not issues in other public transit systems that use Presto, so what makes Waterloo a special snowflake?

[tomh009]

Just one in a long line of bad decisions our government (and staff) has made.

My recollection is that Presto wasn't willing to be flexible to make the system work (here) the way the region wanted it to work.

[danbrotherston]

Just one in a long line of bad decisions our government (and staff) has made.

My recollection is that Presto wasn't willing to be flexible to make the system work (here) the way the region wanted it to work.

Or to put it another way, the region wasn't willing to be flexible and make our system work the same as transit systems in nearly identical neighbouring cities.

This idea that "presto" is the actor who was obstinate here is a narrative, nothing more.

[KevinL]

I think the solution we are slowly moving towards is open payment - that you can use a smart card, a credit/debit card, a smartphone, or what have you - and that payment option works on any system. Then it's just a matter of linking up systems for combining fares.

I don't know how the finer details work, but that's where international systems like Oyster are headed.

[goggolor]

My understanding is you just show your Presto card and they let you board.  For multi-bus trips to get to the station, I'm assuming they'd give you a transfer?

My cynical view on this is that I could just board any bus with my Presto card and get free transit anywhere in the region. I'm hoping they have safeguards to keep people from doing this, but it's hard when you're not on a route that directly connects to the GO station.

I thought it was that you had to tap your linked EasyGO card on the Presto terminal after tapping your Presto card (GO is tap on and off, variable fares), and then you needed to tap on to a GRT bus or ION. I don;t remember there being a local discount when transferring to GO, only from.

The GRT site says: "Starting March 14, you can connect to your GO train trips for free. GO Transit is eliminating the 50¢ Connect-to-GO fare so you can travel to and from the Kitchener Train Station for free on GRT. Just show the operator your Presto card or valid GO train ticket when you board."

[Acitta]

I thought it was that you had to tap your linked EasyGO card on the Presto terminal after tapping your Presto card (GO is tap on and off, variable fares), and then you needed to tap on to a GRT bus or ION. I don;t remember there being a local discount when transferring to GO, only from.

The GRT site says: "Starting March 14, you can connect to your GO train trips for free. GO Transit is eliminating the 50¢ Connect-to-GO fare so you can travel to and from the Kitchener Train Station for free on GRT. Just show the operator your Presto card or valid GO train ticket when you board."

So I guess that I don't qualify if I get on the GO bus at Weber and Queen rather than the train station.

[Bytor]

The features we requested and the RFP process is not some commandments handed down from on high.  *WE CHOSE* them...

And we chose them KNOWING that Presto wouldn't qualify if we did.

No. The fare products and classes we had were already in use, and it's not unreasonable to to say the system must suit us, not that we suit the system.

In any case, Presto qualifying is irrelevant as Prest doesn.t do RFPs. But, I know, you've already made up your mind on this, facts be damned.

Here is an article that lists the reasons why Presto was not chosen.

[ac3r]

"I was concerned that we would be able to go to a request-for-proposals process and not be handcuffed by the Metrolinx/Province of Ontario on this one."

Well that's rich. Instead, they decided to get handcuffed to a consortium of private corporations.

I have to agree with danbrotherston with this. There are benefits to using Presto...that's why there are 11 other transit systems that use it. EasyGO works for what it is, but using Presto would have made much more seamless transport options for people all over Southern Ontario. There'd be great convenience in being able to tap a Presto card to get onto the ION, then transfer to a GO train, then be able to go to Mississauga and use it on MiWay, then the TTC network, then Oakville, Brampton, Burlington, Hamilton, York Region and Durham Transit...then take the UPE train to Pearson to fly to Ottawa and then use the same card on their LRT and bus system.

[danbrotherston]

The features we requested and the RFP process is not some commandments handed down from on high.  *WE CHOSE* them...

And we chose them KNOWING that Presto wouldn't qualify if we did.

No. The fare products and classes we had  were already in use, and it's not unreasonable to to say the system must suit us, not that we suit the system.

In any case, Presto qualifying is irrelevant as Prest doesn.t do RFPs. But, I know, you've already made up your mind on this, facts be damned.

Here is an article that lists the reasons why Presto was not chosen.

What facts?

Are you suggesting that there are physical laws preventing us from using Presto? Or Federal or Provincial laws?

In fact, the article you link supports me here--council made a decision. I believe that it was the wrong decision, but that isn't what I'm arguing here. All I am saying is that it was a CHOICE that we didn't go with Presto and saying it wasn't a choice because Presto didn't participate in the RFP is BS.

[bravado]

I think that the people of Waterloo Region would have been better off if we picked Presto, but either through weird demands from Council or silo'd competitive bureaucrats we're all worse off with what they picked. It's clear they don't actually care about what helps the most people, only whatever helps their internal plan.

[jamincan]

In retrospect, using Presto seems obviously better, but the context at the time was quite different. Presto was still *very* rough around the edges and the benefits of using it, especially outside of the GTA, were not as immediately obvious at that time. In general, if council is not going to use a competitive bidding process, there usually has to be pretty compelling reasons to do it, and with all the trade-offs that it would have entailed, it's not clear to me that selecting Presto outside of a RFP process would have been the right decision. Maybe they would have found it was the best within a competitive process, but thanks to Presto, that wasn't an option.

I would also be very leery of getting into a business relationship with a company that demonstrates an unwillingness to work with me as a client. Take it or leave it is okay if you're selling chocolate bars and cereal. It's a giant red flag for something like this.

Edit: I do wonder, though, if it would make sense for the region to reconsider the fare card issue.

[danbrotherston]

In retrospect, using Presto seems obviously better, but the context at the time was quite different. Presto was still *very* rough around the edges and the benefits of using it, especially outside of the GTA, were not as immediately obvious at that time. In general, if council is not going to use a competitive bidding process, there usually has to be pretty compelling reasons to do it, and with all the trade-offs that it would have entailed, it's not clear to me that selecting Presto outside of a RFP process would have been the right decision. Maybe they would have found it was the best within a competitive process, but thanks to Presto, that wasn't an option.

I would also be very leery of getting into a business relationship with a company that demonstrates an unwillingness to work with me as a client. Take it or leave it is okay if you're selling chocolate bars and cereal. It's a giant red flag for something like this.

Edit: I do wonder, though, if it would make sense for the region to reconsider the fare card issue.

I mean, the whole point of government is to plan for the future, we KNEW that tighter integration with the GTA was something we were striving for, it was easily foreseeable that fare card unity would be a long term benefit.

I do agree that Presto had more issue then, but it is utterly naive to think that our little town would be able to launch a fare card without issues. To me, the most legitimate argument against presto is not trusting the province.

In any case, it's a moot point now, we'll just have to wait 30 years for an integrated fare card. For me, I literally have nine fare cards in my travel bag now....three family members times GRT, Presto, and London. Where we will be by the end of the month, I expect to have 3 fare cards for the entire country including bike rentals.