Victoria and Park | 25, 36, 38 fl | Proposed

[jeffster]

[align=left]Based on the going rate to develop affordable housing units, $2 million wasn't going to go far anyways (and might only represent the gross sale price of 2-3 units sold in this development).  I would be more upset if the original proposal had promised 200 affordable housing units on site (out of the proposed 1,124) and that number was going to be reduced.  

$2 million doesn't got far at all, but it's a lot better than $0.

As for putting 200 (about 18%) into a project like this, that would never happen. I think something like that would diminish the other units value.

However, adding 1,124 units to the market, should have a bit of an impact on overall housing cost in this region. It just won't be a huge amount.

[Spokes]

Everyone expects Debbie to vote no; she's a proud defender of abandoned corner stores and heritage parking lots. This one was weird because even Mayor Berry voted no. Was the whole charade just for the sake of getting re-elected? Shame!!!

These politicians can now say they opposed it to pander to the voters, and the OLT is the "bad guys"

[dtkmelissa]

Everyone expects Debbie to vote no; she's a proud defender of abandoned corner stores and heritage parking lots. This one was weird because even Mayor Berry voted no. Was the whole charade just for the sake of getting re-elected? Shame!!!

These politicians can now say they opposed it to pander to the voters, and the OLT is the "bad guys"

Chapman's comment that "she's not afraid of the OLT and is, instead, hopeful that a better proposal would come from such a process." always bothered me though. Given other comments she's had about the OLT, I don't think she honestly believed her own words, so I'm not sure why she made that claim at all. https://twitter.com/m2bowman/status/1539202290430758912

[ac3r]

So...whatever happened to this project? NIMBYs tried to stop it and it ended up going to the OLT who went ahead and approved it back in 2023, then we never heard anything about it ever again.

Is this just another Waterloo Region flop?

[panamaniac]

So...whatever happened to this project? NIMBYs tried to stop it and it ended up going to the OLT who went ahead and approved it back in 2023, then we never heard anything about it ever again.

Is this just another Waterloo Region flop?

I can't see this proceeding as anything like the proposal, for the obvious reasons.  Perhaps as a smaller, rental project?

[ZEBuilder]

So...whatever happened to this project? NIMBYs tried to stop it and it ended up going to the OLT who went ahead and approved it back in 2023, then we never heard anything about it ever again.

Is this just another Waterloo Region flop?

This is something that happens all over Ontario, it isn't something exclusive to Waterloo Region like you seemingly make it out to be. You're in the industry so you of all people should know that. Well over half the projects that get proposed either never see the light of day or take numerous years for construction.

There's some developers that are absolutely notorious for doing this exact thing, Kingsett is arguably the most notable company doing this in the GTA to the extent you could bet money on it not being built and win every time, other companies do the same thing, Gupta Group for example has some very significant proposals in the GTA that will not see the light of day anytime soon let alone ever, First Capital is similar, and basically every other project that's planned. I'm not intending to pick on those companies they're just the first ones that came to mind who have public projects that aren't going to see construction for years.

That is just the unfortunate reality of the development industry, people with money realized they could put in some work get approvals then sit on it while it just gains value and make a pretty penny while doing it.

[Square]

So...whatever happened to this project? NIMBYs tried to stop it and it ended up going to the OLT who went ahead and approved it back in 2023, then we never heard anything about it ever again.

Is this just another Waterloo Region flop?

I think someone felt sorry for all the trees that would have to be cut down and all those houses that people live in would be evicted.

[nms]

That is just the unfortunate reality of the development industry, people with money realized they could put in some work get approvals then sit on it while it just gains value and make a pretty penny while doing it.

Is there anything that municipalities are entitled to from developers who take up a lot of municipal staff time but then don't do anything?  Would the backlog in approvals that developers constantly complain about shrink if all of the "will never see the light of day projects" get removed from the pipeline?  In some way, Waterloo's bylaw that limits the timeframe between demolition and reconstruction has kept developers from razing residential properties and leaving them as empty lots.

[ZEBuilder]

That is just the unfortunate reality of the development industry, people with money realized they could put in some work get approvals then sit on it while it just gains value and make a pretty penny while doing it.

Is there anything that municipalities are entitled to from developers who take up a lot of municipal staff time but then don't do anything?  Would the backlog in approvals that developers constantly complain about shrink if all of the "will never see the light of day projects" get removed from the pipeline?  In some way, Waterloo's bylaw that limits the timeframe between demolition and reconstruction has kept developers from razing residential properties and leaving them as empty lots.

The simple answer is including sunset clauses in every ZBA/OPA. You would very quickly get rid of all the fake proposals because you'd keep on having to reapply for ZBA/OPAs if you're just sitting and that becomes unprofitable real quick.

There would need to be stipulations within a sunset clause bylaw for very specific cases where timelines get dragged on but those could very easily be put in place as part of the site specific bylaw much like holding provisions.

The funny thing is there really isn't a backlog of approvals as developers love to say, there's thousands of units with SPA approval as we speak that just aren't being built. Not picking on a developer in particular but locally VanMar is sitting on loads of approved but unbuilt units. They have SPA for the remaining 2 Station Park towers, 10 Duke, and 417 King, all 40+ floors and in total 2000+ units. Those projects only need building permits and they can start, however the financial model that VanMar and most condo developers have is not conducive to building speculatively. VanMar does have some money don't get me wrong but you're not going to see them finance a 40+ floor building with their own money. This is why companies that build rental are still building because they have so many assets they can leverage if they need loans, or just massive amounts of liquidity and CMHC has been throwing around a lot of money lately for rental (Vive has been getting a ton of it). In some cases notably SFH developers who have capital are just building units on spec, for example Erinbrook Towns, some of Trussler West and Harvest Park by Activa all have portions being built speculatively.

As you mentioned there are some aspects of the redevelopment process that can be controlled. For example what you're alluding to is known as demolition control, most municipalities have some form of bylaw controlling the demolition of residential units. In Kitchener for example there's 3 conditions that can be applied, building permit and/or SPA, and reconstruction must occur within 2 years, if a developer fails to meet that it's 20000 dollars per dwelling unit, which depending on the project can be costly.

[plam]

Is there anything that municipalities are entitled to from developers who take up a lot of municipal staff time but then don't do anything?  Would the backlog in approvals that developers constantly complain about shrink if all of the "will never see the light of day projects" get removed from the pipeline?  In some way, Waterloo's bylaw that limits the timeframe between demolition and reconstruction has kept developers from razing residential properties and leaving them as empty lots.

The simple answer is including sunset clauses in every ZBA/OPA. You would very quickly get rid of all the fake proposals because you'd keep on having to reapply for ZBA/OPAs if you're just sitting and that becomes unprofitable real quick.

I don't know the answer to this question, but do developers have to pay the full cost of staff time consumed in evaluating proposals?

[ZEBuilder]

The simple answer is including sunset clauses in every ZBA/OPA. You would very quickly get rid of all the fake proposals because you'd keep on having to reapply for ZBA/OPAs if you're just sitting and that becomes unprofitable real quick.

I don't know the answer to this question, but do developers have to pay the full cost of staff time consumed in evaluating proposals?

I don't know the complete ins and outs of zoning fees so the best I could give is an educated guess. 

Most zoning ammendments we were seeing in Kitchener had a height and density increase, as such most applications are considered major zoning bylaw ammendments which cost $27,689.

An official plan ammendment is $34,611.

Now if an OPA and ZBA are submitted concurrently the fees drop to $31,150 and $24,920 respectively for a total fee of $56,070. That much money is certainly reasonable to cover staff costs for an application assuming reasonable turn around time.

56k isn't going to kill developers if that was the fee every time they had to resubmit with sunset clauses in place, but they certainly would think twice about doing it. However if the city required new reports every time that's where it would start to add up (Traffic, Servicing, Urban Design,  Planning Justification).